ETOP's and things

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ian16th
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ETOP's and things

#1 Post by ian16th » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:39 pm

An article written by an ignorant journo, about the possibilities of future long flights from Cape Town to the Australian east coast.

This journo obviously has never heard of ETOP's or a greater circle, but publishes this:
Original Map.jpg
when even a few moments with Google Earth will produce this:
Cape to Melbourne.jpg
Could one of the navigationly educated amongst us produce the actual route that say a B-787 would have to take?
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Re: ETOP's and things

#2 Post by Alisoncc » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:20 pm

Ian, try this website. It's a great circle mapper. A path consists of two more more locations, separated by dashes. For example, SYD-CPT specifies a path from Sydney (Kingsford Smith) to Cape Town(DF Malan).

http://www.gcmap.com/

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Re: ETOP's and things

#3 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:31 pm

On PA to the morons down the back explaining routing BZN to Vancouver they didn't understand why Greenland was involved. Even had one spastic on the flight deck asking when we would overfly India. I told him to look out of the window in three hours. He probably now thinks that they have polar bears in India.
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Re: ETOP's and things

#4 Post by ian16th » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:53 pm

Alison,
Thanks for that.

I couldn't get the ETOP bit to work, and it didn't know about a 787, but it produced a greater circle route not unlike Google.
Greater circle.jpg
Greater circle.jpg (25.54 KiB) Viewed 262 times
A hell of a long way over a hell of a lot of 'oggin, to fly on 2 donks!
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Re: ETOP's and things

#5 Post by G-CPTN » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:57 pm

ian16th wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:53 pm
A hell of a long way over a hell of a lot of 'oggin, to fly on 2 donks!
Cold as well.

Alternative airport?

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Re: ETOP's and things

#6 Post by CremeEgg » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:38 pm

Usual lazy journo. A little research - all of max five minutes on the internet would show that QF already fly substantially further than SYD-CPT eg SYD-LAX and SYD-DFW. Too idle to get the great circle routes right - more or less OK to RIO but not to CPT and those to Europe far too far north.

Ian16th - a long way as you say but what about LATAM and I think ANZ doing AKL- SCL across the Southern Oceans with Sweet FA in the way of an alternate from what I see - both using 789's - with not exactly the most reliable of donks.

Lazy journo in the wail t'other day talking about IAG/BA's purchase of Boeing 777-9 Dreamliners. Time to go in the rant thread.

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Re: ETOP's and things

#7 Post by Slasher » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:07 am

IIRC Air NZ used to fly AKL direct EZE flying over the Antarctic yonks ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: ETOP's and things

#8 Post by ian16th » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:17 am

Slasher wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:07 am
IIRC Air NZ used to fly AKL direct EZE flying over the Antarctic yonks ago.
But wouldn't that be DC-10's with 3 donks?
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Re: ETOP's and things

#9 Post by Slasher » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:36 am

Dunno can't remember mate. I remember reading it in an Oz aviation mag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: ETOP's and things

#10 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:56 am

I was looking at the SAA great circle routes from SA to Australia.

Great circle routes from SA to Australia.JPG

Furtherest south, the route goes down to the latitude of the screaming sixties, westerlies at the surface and westerley jet streams anyway.

Jet streams.JPG
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The original SAA flights to Western Australia started in 1956 when SAA introduced the Douglas DC-7B aircraft on the Springbok Service, the DC-7B was the ultimate in pre-jet era aircraft holding the title of the fastest piston-engine airliner in the world. It also boasted a respectable range. To take advantage of the performance of the aircraft SAA introduced a fast one-stop service from Johannesburg–Khartoum–London. This was known as the East Coast express, the time for the trip was around 21 hours. This service was later transferred to the West Coast express with a technical stop at Kano, Nigeria; the best time for this run was under 18 hours.

The DC-7B also inaugurated the service to Australia, the fortnightly service started in November 1957 routing Johannesburg–Mauritius–Cocos Islands–Perth in Western Australia.

turbo-prop airliner soon proved extremely popular with passengers. The aircraft was fitted with large oval windows that afforded an excellent view. The turbine engines were vibration free and the aircraft was very reliable and profitable.

1960 saw the arrival of the Boeing 707 Intercontinental jet aircraft, the aircraft heralded new dimensions of speed, range and comfort, accommodating over 150 passengers depending on the configuration.

On the first of October 1960 SAA introduced the Boeing 707 on the Springbok Service to the UK. This reduced the journey to an actual flying time of around 13 hours.

The Boeing 707 also brought in the new airline colours, the main difference was the orange tail with a blue and white flash, when repainting was required the other aircraft in the fleet were all converted to the new orange tails. SAA introduced the airliner into service in October 1960 in a mixed first class / economy class configuration carrying a total of 139. When the 707 replaced the DC-7B aircraft on the Australian service the Cocos Islands stop was dropped and the flight terminated in Sydney.

http://www.saamuseum.co.za/saa-history.html
Palmietfontein Airport was a wartime air force base which was converted to a temporary airport to serve Johannesburg whilst the new airport, Jan Smuts Airport (now OR Tambo International Airport), was being built. The airport serving Johannesburg at the time, Rand Airport, was unable to accommodate the size of aircraft to be operated on a new service to Great Britain. In 1948, South African Airways moved its terminal to Palmietfontein Airport.

Several historical flights terminated at Palmietfontein Airport. A Qantas Airways Avro Lancastrian completed an unprecedented flight from Sydney's Kingsford Smith Airport in Australia to Palmietfontein, landing on 20 November 1948 at 15h15, and having been in the air a total of 41 hours and 52 minutes at an average speed of 210 mph (180 kn; 340 km/h). En-route stops were made at Perth, Cocos Islands and Mauritius. The objective, to establish viable air links between South Africa and Australia, had been accomplished.



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Re: ETOP's and things

#11 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:22 am

I was thinking about airlines with the longest routes far away from alternates and I guess Air NZ must be up there in terms of being stuck in the arse end of nowhere. This article from 2015 ref. Air NZ is quite interesting ref. ETOPS. FIve and half hours on one engine seems a long time but I guess such is the reliability of these mighty turbofans these days that the risks are pretty low.

Air New Zealand has set two milestones with its inaugural service to Argentina.
Flight NZ30 took off from Auckland Airport on Tuesday evening, landing at Buenos Aires just over 11 hours later. It was Air NZ’s first scheduled flight to South America and part of the airline’s growth strategy in the Pacific Rim.

And from a technical point of view, the arrival of Boeing 777-200ER ZK-OKC at Ministro Pistarini Airport meant Air NZ became the first airline to operate a flight under 330-minute extended operations (ETOPS) approval rules.

The Star Alliance member has received approval from the US Federal Aviation Administration and New Zealand Civil Aviation Authority to operate its Boeing 777-200ERs powered by Rolls-Royce Trent 800 engines to Buenos Aires with 330-minute ETOPS.

The 330-minute ETOPS – which means the aircraft can be flown on a route that keeps it within five and a half hours flying time on a single engine from an alternate airport in the event of an engine failure, offers Air NZ more flexibility for long over-water flights such as the Auckland-Buenos Aires route.

“We’re delighted to be the first airline globally to offer the longer ETOPS on our 777-200 aircraft for our Auckland-Buenos route. It allows us to offer a new and exciting destination for our customers,” Air NZ chief of flight operations and safety officer David Morgan said in a statement on Wednesday.

Previously, Air NZ’s 777-200ER/Rolls-Royce Trent 800 flights began operating with 240-minute ETOPS in October 2014, and the airline was granted 330-minute ETOPS approval in November 2015.

Boeing vice president and general manager for the 777 program Elizabeth Lund described Air NZ as an industry leader on ETOPS approvals.

“Air New Zealand has truly embraced Boeing’s philosophy of point-to-point service, creating new and exciting routes to connect passengers worldwide,” Lund said in a statement.

To obtain approval to operate an ETOPS flight, an airline must satisfy regulators it meets certain standards and has the appropriate equipment, such as cargo fire suppression capability and satellite communication voice systems, on board. Staff training, operating procedures and the airline’s maintenance practices are also evaluated as part of the approvals process.

While the 777 received type design approval for 330-minute ETOPS from the US FAA in December 2011, airlines are required to apply separately for operational approval to fly the aircraft with the extended operations limit.

Boeing’s 787 has also received certification for 330-minute ETOPS, while the Airbus A350 has European Aviation Safety Agency certification to fly up to six hours and 10 minutes (370 minutes) away from a potential diversion airport in the event of a single engine failure.

In an Australian context, ETOPS restrictions are particularly relevant on routes across the southern oceans, such as Australia to South America and Australia to South Africa. Qantas flies four-engined Boeing 747-400s to Johannesburg and Santiago from its Sydney hub.

The 330-minute 787 ETOPS would allow Qantas to potentially replace the 747-400 on its Sydney-Santiago and Sydney-Johannesburg services with the 787. Qantas in August announced a firm order for eight 787-9s, with the first of the type due to arrive in 2017/18.

Air NZ will fly three times a week between Auckland and Buenos Aires, with Aerolineas Argentina codesharing on the route and offering onward connections to other points in South America.
http://australianaviation.com.au/2015/1 ... nos-aires/

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Re: ETOP's and things

#12 Post by ian16th » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:22 am

Cacophonix wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:56 am
I was looking at the SAA great circle routes from SA to Australia.


Great circle routes from SA to Australia.JPG


Furtherest south, the route goes down to the latitude of the screaming sixties, westerlies at the surface and westerley jet streams anyway.

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Yes Caco, but everything has been done with 4 noisy things on the wings.

Today SAA are using A-340's and Qantas are using B-747's.
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Re: ETOP's and things

#13 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:26 am

ian16th wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:22 am
Cacophonix wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:56 am
I was looking at the SAA great circle routes from SA to Australia.


Great circle routes from SA to Australia.JPG


Furtherest south, the route goes down to the latitude of the screaming sixties, westerlies at the surface and westerley jet streams anyway.

Caco
Yes Caco, but everything has been done with 4 noisy things on the wings.

Today SAA are using A-340's and Qantas are using B-747's.
Good thing too ian16th. Over water or far from friendly fields, whatever you are flying, I feel that the more engines you have whirling away the better!

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Re: ETOP's and things

#14 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:47 pm

Boeing’s 787 has also received certification for 330-minute ETOPS, while the Airbus A350 has European Aviation Safety Agency certification to fly up to six hours and 10 minutes (370 minutes) away from a potential diversion airport in the event of a single engine failure. :-ss
The problem with playing Russian Roulette too many times is that in the long term you are statistically doomed to run out of empty chambers.

Then there's the problem of using IFSD rates as a metric. We all know that crews are encouraged to keep an ailing donk turning and burning at idle in the event of a peripheral problem such as vib or oil troubles so as not to spoil the published IFSD rates, even if it is no longer useable at single engine cruise power.

The insurers already factor in a total hull loss from abuse of ETOPS because they know that eventually it will bite them in the arse.

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Re: ETOP's and things

#15 Post by boing » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:26 pm

Quite right Plum.

A good friend of mine was involved in ETOPs planning on the North Pacific.

It was quietly accepted that if an aircraft diverted to one of the Russian airfields in the dead of winter it was never coming out again. The passengers would be rescued but in a short time the hydraulics and other systems of the aircraft would be destroyed by the intense cold since there were no suitable hangers at most diversions, runway only.


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Re: ETOP's and things

#16 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:09 am

I feel that the more engines you have whirling away the better!
Flt/Eng. Sir, we've just lost No. 8 engine.

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Re: ETOP's and things

#17 Post by Slasher » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:25 pm

Wot Plum said above. 👍🏻
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: ETOP's and things

#18 Post by llondel » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:08 am

Wasn't it Lord King, as twins were becoming more popular for long haul, who was asked why he flew aircraft with four engines? "Because they don't make them with five".

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Re: ETOP's and things

#19 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:21 am

Overheard on the Fairford freq some years ago:

{B-52} Declaring an emergency. Engine failure.

{Laconic British accent, unidentified} Ah yes. The dreaded seven engine approach.

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Re: ETOP's and things

#20 Post by Slasher » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:33 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:47 pm
We all know that crews are encouraged to keep an ailing donk turning and burning at idle in the event of a peripheral problem such as vib or oil troubles so as not to spoil the published IFSD rates, even if it is no longer useable at single engine cruise power.
Just to add Plum that it's better to keep a malfunctioning donk running (except obviously for failure/fire/damage) even at idle power as long as everything is within operating parameters. The reason is the engine will still supply electrics, hyd press, pneumatic press etc.

If only at idle power I'd report to ATC that I'm single engine e.g. for EO missed app and other perf factors. Diverting to the nearest suitable airport would also be in priority.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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