ETOP's and things

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Ex-Ascot
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Re: ETOP's and things

#21 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:01 pm

Absolutely Capt. Long story and I think told before. Took off from Moscow three on T/O power one at idle. Top of climb idle one shut down and another one throttled back. Landing LHR used three with one turning again but throttled back. And this is all because as mentioned by boing. We had been on a night stop and the ground heater had run out of fuel. We had frozen up. All totally illegal. Essentially a three engine ferry with pax. Not the sort of pax you could delay or send schedule. I declared that all problems had occurred in the air.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

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Re: ETOP's and things

#22 Post by Slasher » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:31 am

On the 747 we hadn't a clue what ETOPS was. It was some weird thing that only the drivers of light twins knew about (back then 120 mins IIRC).

On trans-PAC routes we only needed to know the 4 eng depress PNR if fuel was limited, and the Redispatch point on the longer routes to Europe in the Winter. That was that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: ETOP's and things

#23 Post by Slasher » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:25 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:01 pm
Absolutely Capt. Long story and I think told before.
Bit o' pressure there sah but understandable. In the 4 holer Whale an engine out was considered as a non-normal. The unspoken golden rule for the Beast was if the failure occurred withinn the first 1/3rd of the flight you turned back or diverted. If occurring in the last 2/3rds (barring other probs) you kept on to destination. This was more to do with 3 engine fuel considerations (assuming opt level could be maintained) than anything else.

Only EO on the big bugger I ever had was SIN-DXB and that was a precautionary shutdown due to both oil warning light and the gauge (two separate sensors on the JT9D) after passing Cochin. The inconveniences were having to drift down from 370 to 310 and arriving 12 mins late.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: ETOP's and things

#24 Post by llondel » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:10 pm

Slasher wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:25 am


Bit o' pressure there sah but understandable. In the 4 holer Whale an engine out was considered as a non-normal. The unspoken golden rule for the Beast was if the failure occurred withinn the first 1/3rd of the flight you turned back or diverted. If occurring in the last 2/3rds (barring other probs) you kept on to destination. This was more to do with 3 engine fuel considerations (assuming opt level could be maintained) than anything else.
Of course, there was the BA flight that lost an engine on take-off from LAX, mooched around for a bit and then set off home on three. For good measure the same airframe then did it again a short time later, from Singapore, I think.

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Re: ETOP's and things

#25 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:28 pm

I think the skipper was prosecuted for that one, wasn't he?

Ended up declaring a low-fuel Mayday, IIRC.

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Re: ETOP's and things

#26 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:51 pm

I don't think 'prosecuted' is the right term since he followed BA SOPs. I THINK there may have been a little 're-training' over fuel tank selections which I think caused the problem at the end.

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Re: ETOP's and things

#27 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:20 pm

The FAA demanded that BA pay a $25k fine, but that was negotiated away when the firm pointed out that the flight did not technically contravene any law as such a flight was not specifically prohibited by the flag-state CAA.

The AAIB Report is mostly about deficiencies in the FAA-approved FDR!

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Re: ETOP's and things

#28 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:22 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:01 pm
I declared that all problems had occurred in the air.
We were carrying a number of nav kit snags before a hop from Libya to UK when before take off we lost the radar. I knew what the fault was but with the door open, engines running, temperature rising and 24 screws to undo while standing on the ladder and hot kit around me I have up.

By the time we reached Nice we were down to visual from Fl410. I got another pin point over Lyon and then complete stratus. We saw a Canberra ahead and below and followed him. In due course we overhauled him. He, knowing of our superior kit, immediately began following us.

Once we contacted London they were able to give us steers.

Lesson: if it don't work before take off, things can only get worse.

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Re: ETOP's and things

#29 Post by Slasher » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:53 am

One had better ANM/1000kg in the Whale at LRC on 3 as compared to all 4 running IIRC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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