The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

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Capetonian

The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#1 Post by Capetonian » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:38 pm

The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky
Monday 9th Jul 10:00pm
Series: 1
Episode 1 of 2
Creating an Icon

Part one of two. As the 50th anniversary of its creation approaches, this documentary celebrates the Boeing 747 and examines the lasting impact of `the plane that shrank the world'. The first episode explores the story behind the 747's design, revealing some of the challenges faced during its initial construction. The project very nearly led Boeing into bankruptcy, as they raced to meet an ambitious delivery deadline.

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#2 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:40 pm

Juan Trippe, Bill Allen, Joe Sutter and a cast of thousands. Will watch the next episode with interest.

Well worth a read.

747: Creating the World's First Jumbo Jet and Other Adventures from a Life in Aviation by Joe Sutter.

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#3 Post by wings folded » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:48 pm

Time was a bit confusing. 2000z is 21:00BST
But your text said 10:00pm

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#4 Post by Capetonian » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:01 am

WF : Sorry about that. The 'app' I use for checking TV programmes shifts the time to that on my computer which is Z+2. Annoying and confusing, which is why I put 2000Z. I should have removed the reference to 10:00pm.

The next (and last) episode is next Monday 16JUN at 2000Z/2100 GB time.

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#5 Post by CremeEgg » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:43 am

Cape - your "app" is also moving months - I presume it is 2000Z Mon 16 JUL. Have "taped" it or whatever one does with the hard disk equivalent of a VCR.

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#6 Post by Capetonian » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:53 am

Cape - your "app" is also moving months - I presume it is 2000Z Mon 16 JUL
My typo, sorry.
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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#7 Post by Alisoncc » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:59 am

Think I've mentioned elsewhere had a tour of the first 747 delivered to Pan-Am in '68. They flew it across to Perry Oaks and parked it close to Hatton Cross. I was with RCA Aviation at the time working in Sunbury on Thames. As a significant supplier of it's avionics we got an invite to view. Bloody 'ell was it big - after 707's.

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#8 Post by Capetonian » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:28 am

They are huge. I remember years ago I was at LGW for a flight to JER on a DanAir HS748. It looked minuscule compared to the 747 it was parked next to, and one of our group was pretty scared of flying. When I pointed out our aircraft she looked nervously at it and said :
"How long are we in the air for in that thing?"
One smartarse said : "Couple of minutes if we're lucky" which didn't do much to encourage her.

Air Cape used to operate a HS748, generally known as the Vomit Comet, on the coastal route. It was also called KFC for its red and white striped livery.

At one time I worked in a travel agency and we used to look up the flights in the ABC Air Guide, which showed a/c types with a 3-character alphanumeric designation. The HS748 was, predictably, shown as 748. One of my (not very bright) colleagues was making a booking for a passenger on the coastal up to Plett(enburg Bay) and the passenger asked what type of aircraft it was. The answer was 'it's like a 747 but bigger.'
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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#9 Post by Cacophonix » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:00 pm

It is interesting to note the many problems encountered with the early Pratt and Whitney JT9D engines. Not only was the JT9D-3,used on the inaugural flight, to the UK underpowered, meaning the HP turbine section was operated at the pressure limits for MTOW take offs and the aircraft had to be levelled off to allow speed build up before retracting flaps/slats, but the early engines were sensitive to both tail and cross winds during starting resulting in hot starts and/or stalls or surges.

One of the biggest problems with was the fact that the engine casing deformed under thrust on the pylon and ovalized causing the blades to rub against the casing resulting in general wear and tear short blade life. The more powerful JT9D-7 also had the nasty habit of flaming out at higher operational altitudes if throttles were smoothly and gently retarded, so engineers adopted the counterintuitive method of quickly pulling the engines back to idle at the top of a descent to avoid the sounds of silence.
...the bending moment caused the JT9D engine case to both bend (as a beam might along the engine axis) and ovalize. Various modifications, such as case stiffening rings and pre-ovalized turbine seals capable of being abraded were tried, but to no avail.

Lenkeit and his fellow structural engineers conducted extensive static JT9D case deflection testing and used a Fourier analysis to treat the asymmetric case loading. They found that if two—rather than one—thrust mounting points were circumferentially located 90 degrees apart at any one axial position on the engine case, the resulting ovalization of each would cancel the other, greatly reducing overall case distortion. This two-point distortion-canceling method was very effective, so much so that the two mounting points could be separated by as much as 120 degrees and still yield an acceptable amount of case ovalization reduction. The Pratt team then devised and designed a Y-shaped titanium tubular thrust frame with arms that were fastened to the compressor intermediate case at two fixed mounts, about 120 degrees apart. The leg of the thrust frame then attached to the rear turbine case mount through an axially sliding joint (to accommodate engine axial length changes) that was rigidly affixed to the pylon.

This Y-shaped thrust frame—described in detail in the 1972 U.S. Patent 3,675,418—thus used a two-point thrust mount on the engine compressor case to transfer thrust to the pylon at the rear of the engine, satisfying Boeing requirements. One should note that it indeed was a thrust transferring device, and was not an engine case “backbone” stiffener. Subsequent engine tests showed that the new thrust frame substantially reduced ovalization.
Maximum thrust could be achieved with little case distortion and engine performance now met fuel consumption specifications. The new thrust frame (which became known as the “yoke” at P&WA) added about 163 pounds of weight to the 8,600-pound JT9D, and required a relocation of several external engine components. But as an add-on to the existing FAA certified engine it solved the ovalization problem which was threatening the financial future of both Boeing and Pratt & Whitney.

The successful resolution of ovalization problems encountered in mounting the JT9D to the first Boeing 747s has provided guidance for future installations of large fan commercial jet engines. For instance, the ovalization-canceling two-point mounting design is used in the engine mounts of both the General Electric GE 90 and the Rolls-Royce Trent 800 turbofan engines that power the Boeing 777.

R.R. Whyte once wrote, “Progress is the art of getting out of trouble you wouldn’t have been in if it was not for progress.” Without the ambition of engineers to create a technological marvel— the veritable icon that is the Boeing 747—the issue of engine case ovalization would never have arisen. And with the innovative engine mounting solution hit upon by the engineers at Pratt & Whitney Aircraft, the whole class of jumbo jets became viable.
Lee S. Langston, an ASME Fellow, is professor emeritus of the Mechanical Engineering Department at the University of Connecticut in Storrs.
https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFA ... 201032.PDF
JT9D Engine.JPG
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For companies like BA these JT9D engines were replaced by the now improved Rolls-Royce RB11 which had its own development travails and whose initial development had bankrupted Rolls-Royce. The early days of the turbofan engine with both manufacturers were fraught with issues and complexity as would be expected from such a radical step in innovation that had been prompted by the arrival of large wide bodied jets like the 747.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_JT9D

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#10 Post by boing » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:36 pm

Caco,

By the time I was flying the "old" 747s the potential flame out at top of descent was still a concern but the flight engineers had been tamed. The best procedure was to simply reduce power in 2 stages, an initial power reduction (I forget how much) followed by closing the throttle completely after the engine had had a chance to stabilize.

Both the "old" 747 and the -400s were a dream to fly, not a dream to fly "for a big aeroplane" but simply a dream to fly compared with any other airliner. It had that feeling of "un-stop-ability", whatever system broke you had plenty of others and engines to spare.


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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#11 Post by Cacophonix » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:39 am

boing wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:36 pm
Caco,

By the time I was flying the "old" 747s the potential flame out at top of descent was still a concern but the flight engineers had been tamed. The best procedure was to simply reduce power in 2 stages, an initial power reduction (I forget how much) followed by closing the throttle completely after the engine had had a chance to stabilize.

Both the "old" 747 and the -400s were a dream to fly, not a dream to fly "for a big aeroplane" but simply a dream to fly compared with any other airliner. It had that feeling of "un-stop-ability", whatever system broke you had plenty of others and engines to spare.

boing

I had the pleasure of spending a number of evenings (and not a few drinks) talking to a retired, ex-SAA Training Captain, who now runs a guest house down in the Wilderness on the Garden Route in South Africa, who, like you, waxed lyrical about the 747 "Classic" and had a great deal of nostalgia and respect for the skill of most of the Flight Engineers he had flown with, who had more 'experience', as he put it, than any number of FADEC's and the automation in the Airbus A340 that he had been shoehorned into in his latter years with the company.

I suspect that those flew and operated the 747 will come to be regarded as last particiants in a golden era of aviation. His enthusiasm, like yours, for the quadruple redundancy of many of the 747 systems, plus the flying characteristics of the aircraft and the bird's "get you there" ability was wonderful to behold. I came away, a lot wiser for listening to him and full admiration for a man who had quite clearly thoroughly enjoyed his professional career and life.

I perceive from you comments about engine managment, that coaxing the best out of the early JT9D's was as much as art as a science! Always good to hear the experiences and glean a little from the cognoscenti like yourself that plied the world and beyond in these, sadly, increasingly rare beasts.

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#12 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:34 am

and parked it close to Hatton Cross.
I was there that day as well ! Still have a photo of my then 4 yr old son stood against one of the main undercarriage wheels - towering over him !

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#13 Post by boing » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:46 am

There was a famous story about a PanAm 747 that got into trouble due to an unfortunate series of engine and fuel system failures, they were facing a ditching over the Pacific. As you say the experience of the Flight Engineer saved the day.

I can't remember the exact details but the problem was that the aircraft had plenty of fuel however it could not be fed across the aircraft to the operating engines, ie. the fuel that would be needed was in the left wing but the right wing engines were the ones in operation. The tanks in the wing with operating engines would run dry before an airfield could be reached.The only time that it was possible to open the valve that connected the right wing tanks to the left wing tanks was during fueling on the ground.

The ace engineer worked out a combination of circuit breakers that could be pulled to fool the aircraft that it was on the ground, then he repeated the trick to convince the aircraft that it was being refueled. This enabled the engineer to move fuel across the aircraft and keep it flying until a safe landing could be made.

Strangely this neat trick never became a documented and approved emergency procedure. I suppose the powers-that-be decided the risk of a screw up following the complex procedure was not just worth the effort.


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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#14 Post by Capetonian » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:52 am



Most of you will be aware of this 707 stunt. I have always wondered how the engines didn't run dry since I assume that the fuel feed is gravity fed given that they are normally under the wings and not above!

I love the comment at 3'50" ........

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#15 Post by Alisoncc » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:03 am

ExSp33db1rd wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:34 am
alisoncc wrote:and parked it close to Hatton Cross.
I was there that day as well ! Still have a photo of my then 4 yr old son stood against one of the main undercarriage wheels - towering over him !
Should have said something Speedy. Could have chatted about what we would be doing in fifty years time. :D

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#16 Post by Cacophonix » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:16 pm

Capetonian wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:52 am


Most of you will be aware of this 707 stunt. I have always wondered how the engines didn't run dry since I assume that the fuel feed is gravity fed given that they are normally under the wings and not above!

I love the comment at 3'50" ........
The 707 or the Dash-80, which was actually what Tex Johnston rolled, had two boost pumps per engine. Clearly Johnson was confident that his roll would be balanced because if it wasn't, the danger was not only that those pumps might be sucking air inverted but, worse they may have ruptured due to the fact that they were not desgined to take large negative loads. The wings themselves clearly had not been designed with aerobatics in mind either.

http://propspistonsandoldairliners.blog ... ighty.html

Being a superb pilot he made it look easy and the engines didn't surge or flame out on him either.
Alvin Johnston is best known for performing a barnstormer-style barrel roll maneuver with Boeing's pioneering 367-80 jet in a demonstration flight over Lake Washington outside Seattle, on August 7, 1955. The maneuver was caught on film and was frequently shown on the Discovery Wings cable channel in a three-minute short as part of the Touched by History series, while the channel still aired. Called before the then-president of Boeing, Bill Allen, for rolling the airplane, Johnston was asked what he thought he was doing, and responded with "I was selling airplanes". He kept his position as a test pilot, and did not get in legal trouble for his actions. Along with his cowboy style of dress, such maverick behavior is said to have inspired the creation of Dr. Strangelove's Maj. T.J. "King" Kong character, who, in rodeo style, rode a balky nuclear weapon to its target.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_M._Johnston

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#17 Post by Karearea » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:40 pm

At 2:34 to 2:43 in that clip, I thought I picked the voice of Robert Vaughn.
Research shows me he narrated the aviation documentary Reaching for the Skies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaching_for_the_Skies

so I expect there's a connection.

Sorry for deviation from the subject. :)
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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#18 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:10 am

The best procedure was to simply reduce power in 2 stages, an initial power reduction (I forget how much) followed by closing the throttle completely after the engine had had a chance to stabilize.
I recall setting descent power to a specified EPR value - now forgotten - until passing F/L 350, then reducing to idle ?

Happy days, never flew the -400, always vowed never to fly without a Flt/Eng, the only one who really knew what was going on !

Have remarked previously - met the future Mrs.ExS. on the 747, as a flight deck visitor, having refused to sign her birthday card drawn on the back of a 1st Class Menu card and signed by the cabin crew. "No, not until I've seen her, bring her up !"

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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#19 Post by boing » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:33 am

"I suspect that those flew and operated the 747 will come to be regarded as last participants in a golden era of aviation."

Oh Caco, is it that we all automatically feel that in our times we have lived the Golden Years in aviation or could it really be true?

If the era of the 747 was the end of the Golden Era it is because the push for profit over all other considerations just happened to coincide with the retirement of the aircraft or likely precipitated it. This push for profits has led to deteriorating customer service, an increase in automation on the flight deck and more detailed control of the aircraft operation from a ground base 10,000 miles away. Is this a good or bad thing? Regardless, whilst the changes might help more people to fly I simply want no part of them.

Now, you must not take this as ego, it is purely an element of job satisfaction. I commanded an aircraft, decisions that affected the success of the flight, its safety and its profitability were in my hands. When I got home at the end of the flight I could sit down quietly with a drink and replay the events, what did I do right, what did I do wrong, what did I learn? I do not think that this job satisfaction is normally available to airline plots in these days. From that point of view the Golden Era is over.


.


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Re: The Jumbo Jet: 50 Years in the Sky : Channel 5 2000Z tonight

#20 Post by Cacophonix » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:43 am

boing wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:33 am
"I suspect that those flew and operated the 747 will come to be regarded as last participants in a golden era of aviation."

Oh Caco, is it that we all automatically feel that in our times we have lived the Golden Years in aviation or could it really be true?

If the era of the 747 was the end of the Golden Era it is because the push for profit over all other considerations just happened to coincide with the retirement of the aircraft or likely precipitated it. This push for profits has led to deteriorating customer service, an increase in automation on the flight deck and more detailed control of the aircraft operation from a ground base 10,000 miles away. Is this a good or bad thing? Regardless, whilst the changes might help more people to fly I simply want no part of them.

Now, you must not take this as ego, it is purely an element of job satisfaction. I commanded an aircraft, decisions that affected the success of the flight, its safety and its profitability were in my hands. When I got home at the end of the flight I could sit down quietly with a drink and replay the events, what did I do right, what did I do wrong, what did I learn? I do not think that this job satisfaction is normally available to airline plots in these days. From that point of view the Golden Era is over.
Well put Boing and something to ponder on at length!

As our Afrikaans speaking house builder used to say in his broken English "If you take the proud out of the job, you take the proud out of life!"

Methinks that is what automation and the diminution of real Captaincy and competency is inexorably doing, all in the name of mammon as you say!

Caco

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