Difficult Approaches...

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OneHungLow
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Difficult Approaches...

#1 Post by OneHungLow » Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:12 pm

Anybody want to guess precisely where this one is. My provenance might be a clue!

Diffiult approaches and departures..JPG
oo
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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#2 Post by OneHungLow » Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:06 pm

As ever with aviation on this site these days, you might as well talk to yourself...


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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#3 Post by OneHungLow » Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:09 pm

Another Lesotho strip...

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#4 Post by OneHungLow » Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:17 pm



First officers, let alone Captains never looked this good! ;)))
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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#5 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:34 pm



The departure on 21 (starts at 15:15) is fun.
Note the use of the taxiway to start the takeoff roll, with a turn onto the runway.
Note the hump in the runway.
If you do this in a twin, as I did, then you do not have a stop speed if one engine fails after the peak of the hump. Unlike the single in the video, a twin is not airborne at this point. If you tried to stop, it's all downhill until you reach the cliff edge off the end of the runway.

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#6 Post by OneHungLow » Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:57 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:34 pm


The departure on 21 (starts at 15:15) is fun.
Note the use of the taxiway to start the takeoff roll, with a turn onto the runway.
Note the hump in the runway.
If you do this in a twin, as I did, then you do not have a stop speed if one engine fails after the peak of the hump. Unlike the single in the video, a twin is not airborne at this point. If you tried to stop, it's all downhill until you reach the cliff edge off the end of the runway.
Always my modus operandi in a light single, no matter what the length of the runway or how favourable the density altitude is. ;)))

Can get awkward in a twin if you are using differential throttle and braking to expedite the turn. The tyres don't like it Mister Mainwaring.
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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#7 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:15 pm

Indeed, I opted for bringing the power back slightly on the left engine and not using braking.
I was being assessed by the Chief Pilot on this, so I opted to aim for no more than 30 mph round the corner.
He concurred that this was a safe option, but then advised up to 40 mph, based on his personal experience, which gave us a tad more wiggle room down the runway should there have been problem.
The real test was whether I had noticed on the approach about the downslope and the small cliff into the canyon in the takeoff overrun, and therefore that stopping if we lost one after the hump was not an option.
I did, nobody else before me had. He was quite chuffed, as we were the only two ex-RAF chaps.

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#8 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:42 pm

I have many landings and takeoffs (equal number) there from the early 90s onward before it was paved. Everything from a C170 to a Twotter.
A friend and coworker had one less takeoff than landing there.
Routine was to land on 3 and depart 21 in all but the most unfavorable wind conditions as the parking area, store and tie downs were at the north end.
My friend was approaching for 3 with a TS also approaching from the southwest. He landed on 3 anyway with too high a groundspeed in a full C210 and went through a chainlink fence and took out a brand new Chevy Suburban belonging to a couple on a Grand Canyon raft trip. He got the worst of it with a broken collarbone and one of the river guides in the back bunged up his knee.
A week later I flew into Bar Ten Ranch (https://www.bar10.com/ , https://www.bar10.com/landing-strip/) (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Grand ... cdjb?hl=en After it was paved)to pick up river runners to fly back to Marble Canyon. Among them were the owners of the Suburban whom we had to inform of its demise. They took it surprisingly well with the wife only stating that she would be choosing the color of the replacement. :))
One of the fun things was that since I had special authorization to fly in the canyon. all flights to the east- Grand Canyon Airport, Marble Canyon, Cliff Dwellers, and Page took off into the canyon and turned over Lava Falls, the largest rapid in the canyon and the last encountered by rafters getting out at Whitmore Wash and being helicoptered up to the Bar Ten.
The passengers really got off on seeing the rapid that they had just run only a few hours earlier.

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#9 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:49 pm

The wagons pictured in the Bar Ten website are actually sleeping accommodations for overnighters with just a double mattress. Overnight guests, including myself, were treated to a cowboy campfire cookout dinner done up by real cowboys and the requisite campfire tales.

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#10 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:36 pm

Gibraltar, RWY 09 was entertaining in a fast jet.
First there was the turbulence coming off The Rock, on which there was a 15 kt wind limit. And with good reason, as I saw a guy try it in 15G20, and he needed a change of underwear afterwards.
Then, because the Spanish restricted the airspace to fast jets, you had to approach on about 350, then make a 100 right turn at about a mile and a half finals. In performance terms of course this wasn't a problem, as we were quite used to low, hard turns and had ample power, but it was sporting doing it so close to vessels and buildings. You had to check quite carefully whether some rustbucket tramp steamer had anchored in the restricted area short finals, which they occasionally did.

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#11 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:47 pm

Marble Canyon Airstrip

One of our older pilots had a penchant for taking off on 21 to return to Page and doing a descending 180o turn into Marble Canyon and flying under the bridge.
It took much persuasion by TPTB to finally dissuade him from this practice fearing not only for his license but potential actions against the company.


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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#12 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:08 pm

As a slight contrast, the old guy who was our Ops Officer in Arizona had at one point been the personal pilot for the King of Nepal.
He lost the only engine at 300 ft on takeoff from one strip, and landed nearly 10 minutes later.
The strip was atop a ridge, and the valley off the end of the runway, at the bottom of which he finally touched down, was nearly 10,000 foot deep!
He had to follow the valley quite some distance downstream to find a flat bit, but had the altitude to do this.

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#13 Post by CharlieOneSix » Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:10 pm

Putting a different slant on things - one of my least favourite North Sea destinations was the Buchan floating oil platform. With a northerly wind and the approach orientated as shown below, you had to make a very early decision on your Landing Decision Point as any go around in the event of an engine failure was hampered by the two flare stacks shown. Then there was the turbulence created by the superstructure just in front of the landing pad. On take off the helicopter had to be flown backwards and upwards, keeping the landing pad available in the event of an engine failure until you could stuff the nose down and fly away around the flare stacks, always with the possibility of pushing the limits of tail rotor control at that point. Not for nothing did I always say F****n Buchan when I saw it was on my flypro.
Buchan.jpg
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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#14 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:24 pm

Monument Valley Airport

Pavement, runway markings? :-o
What's next? A control tower?
:ymdevil:



Comment on technique:
I have hundreds of landings here and this one looked like they drug it in. [-X

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#15 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:33 pm

Hite Marina Airport
Uphill, downhill, dogleg right.
Always did a right base landing east as that put you right against the cliffs at eye level with those in the overlook parking lot. :-o :ymdevil:



Hite at 3:40

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#16 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:34 pm

I've only been to MV once.
Window Rock, AZ was an easy approach but a very entertaining departure.
I was flying a Jet Provost, and the IAS/TAS business at nearly 7,000 feet amsl made for a very low angle of climb, nevermind the performance data only going up to 2,000 ft.
Let's just say it almost ended up being renamed Windows Rock.

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#17 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:46 pm

Bar Ten

Paved now. [-X
No markings though! #:-S





Monument Valley, Bar Ten, and the old Hall's Crossing strip at Hall's Crossing Marina on Lake Powell were the three dirt strips that we routinely flew into. They all had different colored dirt. :-?
On laundry day I could thee which one that I had flown to by the color of the ring around the collar of my once white pilot shirt. =))

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#18 Post by tango15 » Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:28 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:36 pm
Gibraltar, RWY 09 was entertaining in a fast jet.
First there was the turbulence coming off The Rock, on which there was a 15 kt wind limit. And with good reason, as I saw a guy try it in 15G20, and he needed a change of underwear afterwards.
Then, because the Spanish restricted the airspace to fast jets, you had to approach on about 350, then make a 100 right turn at about a mile and a half finals. In performance terms of course this wasn't a problem, as we were quite used to low, hard turns and had ample power, but it was sporting doing it so close to vessels and buildings. You had to check quite carefully whether some rustbucket tramp steamer had anchored in the restricted area short finals, which they occasionally did.
It's definitely a tricky approach. I am reliably informed that there is a Notice to Mariners regarding anchorage in the vicinity of 09, but as you say, this is frequently ignored. One night during the days of British Airoturs, I was on the jump seat, with a mate of mine in the driving seat, and during final descent, all the lights on the airport went out. This being during the days when the Generalissimo had closed the gates, we were looking at a night stop in Tangier. We flew around for about 20 mins, having been informed that they were looking for the duty sparks in Casemates, and power was soon restored.

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#19 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:48 am

Since one of my first RAF flying instructors had flown Liberators in WW2, I was taught, unofficially, how to land if all the lights suddenly went out.

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Re: Difficult Approaches...

#20 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:59 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:48 am
Since one of my first RAF flying instructors had flown Liberators in WW2, I was taught, unofficially, how to land if all the lights suddenly went out.
Same here.
Mine was ex-Air America, dual rated, and flew Boxcars, among other types. That was about all I could get out of him about his past.
He had some unorthodox teaching techniques and we called him Yoda because of this. ^:)^
On one simulated engine failure I chose a country road with no poles, wires, or other obstacles and set up for the landing, all the while waiting for his hand to advance the throttle and end the exercise. The hand did not appear until we had touched down on the road. :-o As we climbed out he turned to me and said "Of course you realize that no contact with the ground occured". :D
"Whatever you say, Bill". :))

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