High Performance Passenger Airliners

Message
Author
Slasher

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#1 Post by Slasher » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:09 pm

Nice one Plum! 👍🏻

I'd been on the DC9-30 for about a year when my arse got strapped to the 72. The DC9 was a real "leather jacket 'n bitchpad" machine where the 727 was more a collar and tie. DC9 jocks were reckoned as petrolheads by 727 flyers who were more your sedate Limo type drivers.

All hell broke loose when we started our sim work. "Ahem...ten miles 3000 feet at 300 bloody knots for an ILS is NOT this fleet's Company procedure First Officer Slasher!" [-(

User avatar
OFSO
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 18600
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Teddington UK and Roses Catalunia
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#2 Post by OFSO » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:22 pm

First aircraft I was a SLF. Thought all airliners were as good. There's a nice video on the Toob of a JAT 727 landing in Jugoslavia, crew all swapping jokes and smoking. Good landing, mind.

User avatar
ian16th
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10029
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:35 am
Location: KZN South Coast with the bananas
Gender:
Age: 87

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#3 Post by ian16th » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:44 pm

Wasn't the B-727 second only to Concord on the fastest passenger a/c stakes?
Cynicism improves with age

Capetonian

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#4 Post by Capetonian » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:47 pm

"Wasn't the B-727 second only to Concord on the fastest passenger a/c stakes?"

VC-10 I think.

User avatar
ian16th
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10029
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:35 am
Location: KZN South Coast with the bananas
Gender:
Age: 87

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#5 Post by ian16th » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:49 pm

Capetonian wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:47 pm
"Wasn't the B-727 second only to Concord on the fastest passenger a/c stakes?"

VC-10 I think.
If it was, I expect confirmation from Bots!
Cynicism improves with age

Slasher

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#6 Post by Slasher » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:56 pm

ian16th wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:44 pm
Wasn't the B-727 second only to Concord on the fastest passenger a/c stakes?
727 was .85 nominal but .87 was ok running late if you had the fuel.

Wasn't the fastest commercial airliner the IL62? Heard .90 was the usual and .92 was not uncommon in smooth air. I might be wrong though.

Capetonian

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#7 Post by Capetonian » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:02 pm

The performance of the VC10 was such that it achieved the fastest crossing of the Atlantic by a jet airliner, a record still held to date for a sub-sonic airliner, of 5 hours and 1 minute; only the supersonic Concorde was faster.

The Il-62! Otherwise known as Konkordski.

EDIT :My error :
Konkordski was the TU-144 (crashed at Paris Air show.)
IL-62 was the VC10-ski.

1276998.jpg
1276998.jpg (76.92 KiB) Viewed 1685 times

Cacophonix
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8327
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:14 pm
Location: Wandering

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#8 Post by Cacophonix » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:05 pm

ian16th wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:49 pm
Capetonian wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:47 pm
"Wasn't the B-727 second only to Concord on the fastest passenger a/c stakes?"

VC-10 I think.
If it was, I expect confirmation from Bots!
Sorry chaps but you are wrong.

Nobody here will like me for saying that the fastest commercial passenger airliner after Concorde (excluding corporate jets) was the derivation of the Convair 880 namely the Conavair 990 and 990A (Coronado). I expect the VC10 and 727 jockeys here to start complaining and telling us that they went supersonic in dives etc. and sundry other tall stories told over a couple of drinks in other kinds of dives but it is a fact. :ymdevil: =))
The Convair 990A is still the fastest non-supersonic commercial transport to have ever been produced.[citation needed] During May 1961, one of the pre-production 990 prototype aircraft set a record of .97 Mach in level flight at an altitude of 22,500 ft., equivalent to a true airspeed of 675 mph.This was before the various aerodynamic drag-reduction changes were applied to the later 990A in order to meet certain performance guarantees which Convair had made to American Airlines. These subsequent modifications made to the later 990A (consisting of the four wing-mounted anti-shock body "speed capsules" and substantial streamlining of the engine pylon/wing interface) increased the velocity at which onset of transonic drag would occur by 0.09 Mach. As such, the 990A would have been capable of speeds slightly in excess of 700 mph.

Citation the Cacophonix book of speed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_990_Coronado

Caco

Slasher

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#9 Post by Slasher » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:07 pm

Capetonian wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:02 pm
The Il-62! Otherwise known as Konkordski.
You're right. I mixed up me 'skis. I meant the VC10ski thingy.

Slasher

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#10 Post by Slasher » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:10 pm

I expect the VC10 and 727 jockeys here to start complaining and telling us that they went supersonic in dives etc.
Course we did! Quite a few times!





Ahem...




In the sim! ;)))

Cacophonix
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8327
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:14 pm
Location: Wandering

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#11 Post by Cacophonix » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:26 pm

1. The Concorde — No surprise here. The Anglo-French Concorde was designed for flight up to Mach 2.2 (2.2 times the speed of sound), but it cruised at “just” Mach 2.02 to save fuel and prolong the life of its skin. The aircraft was in service from 1976 to 2003, but you can still visit the Concorde flight simulator in London.
2. Tupolev TU-144 — At Mach 2.0, the Russian version of the Concorde was just slightly slower, but nowhere near as successful. It only undertook 55 passenger flights before it was retired due to safety concerns.
3. Convair 880 — This airliner was designed to cruise at 615 mph, or about Mach .89. To most eyes, this plane looks like the classic Boeing 707, and just 65 were produced between 1959 and 1962. But it did see service with a wide range of carriers including Alaska, Cathay Pacific, Delta, Japan Airlines and TWA. However, its most famous operator was none other than Elvis Presley.
https://thepointsguy.com/2017/03/fastes ... nger-jets/
Swissair CV990A Coronado St Gallen at Manchester Airport in 1964.JPG
Swissair CV990A Coronado St Gallen at Manchester Airport in 1964.JPG (59.56 KiB) Viewed 1865 times
Caco

Capetonian

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#12 Post by Capetonian » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:32 pm

Am I correct in thinking that the (then) Ciskei government were conned into the purchase of a pair of CV-880s from Swissair which then sat on the ground at Bisho airport for several years? I think one was converted into a backpackers' lodge and I suspect the other is a rusted hulk somewhere.

Cacophonix
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8327
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:14 pm
Location: Wandering

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#13 Post by Cacophonix » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:40 pm

Capetonian wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:32 pm
Am I correct in thinking that the (then) Ciskei government were conned into the purchase of a pair of CV-880s from Swissair which then sat on the ground at Bisho airport for several years? I think one was converted into a backpackers' lodge and I suspect the other is a rusted hulk somewhere.

Quite right Capetonian.

Convair 880 in South Africa.JPG
Convair 880 in South Africa.JPG (42.55 KiB) Viewed 1859 times
Poes pink as well! Sies man...

This Convair 880 aircraft c/n 22-7-6-58 (ex. N88CH) is in private ownership of South African councillor Billy Nel located in the Eastern Cape (between East London and Kei Mouth). Although not in airworthy condition it is one of the few surviving aircraft of this type.

It was first delivered to Japan Air Lines in July 1961, registered JA8022. Cathay Pacific Airways bought it in July 1970 and registered it as VR-HGF. Compania Iter-Americana Export Import bought it in September 1975 and registered it as N88CH. Jet Aviation in Basel, Switzerland bought it in February 1976 and transferred it to Hirschmann Corporation in the USA. At that time the airline interior was converted for executive transport use. D-Flag Leasing bought it in December 1977. Orchester Incorporated bought it in May 1978. Sentinel Jets Inc. bought it in March 1979. C C Petit bought it in October 1981. As of July 1983 it was being held at Islip, New York for unpaid fuel and parking fees. It had been abandoned by the rock group Jefferson Starship when they were not paid for performing a concert in Long Island. The Ciskei government bought it in August 1987 for the purpose of using it as the luxurious personal transport of president Lennox Sebe, but could not afford to make it airworthy. It was parked at the Bulembu International Airport for 8 years at a great expense.

Once a flying party palace to stars like Barbra Streisand, John Denver, the Rolling Stones and The Who and designed by Howard Hughes, it is one of only two remaining aircraft of its kind in the world. The other one is lodged in Graceland, Elvis Presley’s former home in Memphis, Tennessee.

By the time the rock ’n’ roll era had waned in the mid-1970s, the Convair was put to pasture and by 1992, Ciskei’s Lennox Sebe was ready to invest in his own private aircraft. But the deal fell flat when it was ascertained that the plane needed too many costly repairs to be viable. It was scrap metal time for the Convair. That was until Billy Nel stepped in. And so a bizarre journey towing the aircraft from Ciskei’s Bulembu Airport to his massive riverside plot in Gonubie began and subsequently it was towed to its present resting place.

He paid R30 000 for the plane but it cost him R90 000 to move it – a lot of money in those days. But the historical value of it got him going. The wings were temporarily sliced off, but the aircraft was still as wide as a single carriageway. Also there were two bridges between King William’s Town and East London that were too narrow and one that was too low, so a road had to be forged through Ciskei with a front-end loader.

The story is the stuff of legend and, if only the original psychedelic wall covering, mustard couches, double bed and swanky fitted bar could speak, they would no doubt spill equally outrageous tales – most probably starring Mick Jagger himself.

You can also refer to GC2B8MT White Airport for more information on “airport-has-not-taken-off”.

Caco

User avatar
ian16th
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10029
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:35 am
Location: KZN South Coast with the bananas
Gender:
Age: 87

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#14 Post by ian16th » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:48 pm

Capetonian wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:32 pm
Am I correct in thinking that the (then) Ciskei government were conned into the purchase of a pair of CV-880s from Swissair which then sat on the ground at Bisho airport for several years? I think one was converted into a backpackers' lodge and I suspect the other is a rusted hulk somewhere.
Go on Google Earth and put 32°39'56.31"S, 28°17'47.46"E in.
Cynicism improves with age

User avatar
Ibbie
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 6077
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:11 pm
Location: Mijas Costa, Malaga, Spain
Gender:
Age: 74

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#15 Post by Ibbie » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:01 pm

The last airline to operate the CV-990 was Spantax in 1987. EC-BZO is still derilict at Palma Airport.

One of the members of the Friends of Malaga Airport museum was a flight engineer with Spantax on the CV-990. Prior to that he was on the airline's Britannias. Has some interesting tales. He remembers them most for engine oil leaks.

Cacophonix
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8327
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:14 pm
Location: Wandering

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#16 Post by Cacophonix » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:02 pm

https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2 ... 47a4cd0f00

More about Sebe, Bisho/Bulembu airport and the Convairs. The craziness that was apartheid.
With an air-conditioned office, 28 staff and a R786 000-a-year budget, the Bhisho Airport manager, Maki Ndingaye, is missing only one thing: aeroplanes.

Not one single scheduled commercial or public flight has arrived at his airport in more than 10 years, since Ciskei International Airlines collapsed. His staff, especially the four-man team in the 30m-high air control tower, are bored.

“They wait and wait and wait and wait. It’s terrible,” Ndingaye said this week from his office overlooking the 2.4km runway outside King William’s Town in the Eastern Cape.

“But they must stay there [in the air traffic control tower], otherwise it’s misconduct. They play cards,” said Ndingaye.

The bizarre ghost airport — once the “international gateway” to the Ciskei — has again sparked controversy in the cash-strapped Eastern Cape, where the Transport Department is accused of wasting millions on a white elephant investment.

When the Sunday Times visited the sprawling airport complex this week, the administrative staff were at their desks, staring out of the tinted-glass windows. The only thing on the runway was a large crow, pecking at a dead lizard. Outside the once grand “International” arrivals hall, swallows were nesting in the rafters next to the main entrance. The hall, inside, remains virtually untouched since the day it was built in 1988. Large X-ray machines, still functional, stand unplugged next to padlocked sliding doors that have started leaking rainwater. A neat row of check-out counters stands empty. A dusty departures board advertises a flight from Durban to George.

“The equipment still works,” said Ndingaye. “To me, if I was in charge, I’d make the place work.” He said the facility even had a trained emergency fire crew at the ready. “They are very frustrated,” said Ndingaye.

He said the airport was sometimes used by jets ferrying senior politicians such as the President, the deputy president and the premier.

In a written answer to questions raised in the Eastern Cape provincial legislature last month, the Transport MEC, Thobile Mhlahlo, confirmed there were no scheduled flights using the airport. “It’s only private and chartered aircraft that make use of this airport and very occasionally,” said Mhlahlo.

He said the Department of Transport was mandated to restructure the airport via a public-private partnership. The department had called for tenders, said Mhlahlo.

“The response was positive. However, none of them could be awarded the tender due to the fact that all had costed their proposals well beyond what the department could afford.”

The Democratic Alliance spokesman for Transport and Public Works in the Eastern Cape, Pine Pienaar, described the airport situation as “spooky”.

“The staff are just sitting there doing nothing. They’ve got new desks and new computers but there’s nothing for them to do.

“At least get rid of it or subsidise it for somebody else to take over,” said Pienaar.

Mhlahlo said: “The Department of Transport staff, which cannot claim any specialised expertise in airport management, manages the airport and there are no scheduled flights.

“The airport is regarded highly in terms of airport ratings and it has acquired an international classification because of the state of the infrastructure. Its airstrip can accommodate a Boeing 747.”

Mhlahlo said there was growing interest in the facility from various individuals, institutions and companies.

“The executive council has resolved that this airport should be restructured along the public-private partnership line,” he said.

The Provincial Finance MEC, Billy Nel, hoped the airport could be utilised: “It’s costing us and we’re wasting money. We need to be inventive. The government should throw it in as a freebie for a year or two to get investment there,” said Nel, adding that the provincial government was also trying to breathe new life into Dimbaza — another ambitious apartheid-era development outside Bhisho.

Bhisho Airport, once known as “Sebe’s Folly”, was opened by the former Ciskei President, Lennox Sebe, in February 1988 to fulfil the homeland’s dream of having a gateway to the world.

Sebe bought two ageing passenger jets at huge expense: a 146-seater Convair 990 and a 46-seater Convair 880. The 46-seater now sits on Billy Nel’s tennis court and has been converted into a restaurant. Said Nel: “A lot of people after a few drinks want me to start the engines.”

And more from TOP. A very South African story...
Here's some history for you!

The airport was constructed in 1981 by Kunard Brothers from East London under the supervision of an American called Gary Morgan. Those boys made big loot. I mean a R28 million contract for 1981 was really something big.

President Lennox Sebe desperately wanted an airline. Particularly a jet service which could compete with SAA out of East London, and Transkei Airways out of Umtata. He simply had to be better than the Matanzimas who were operating a couple of King Airs and a HS 748 with "Highway Hennie". believe it or not, as one of the Commanders. Other Captain's included a really great guy called Tom Lawless. Yes, the good old days!

Negotiations started with John Morrison & Magnum Airlines, and Magnum's MD, Ms. Jenny Nathanson got seriously involved, but they could not provide a jet service, and Sebe wanted a jet. "A fast one". At a serious meeting held at the Presidential Office during the late part of May1987, Ms. Nathanson was informed that Magnum had no chance, and she left the meeting in tears.

Then in June 1987 came along the greatest conman of all times. (Yes, worse than "Conman Andrews") Another Yank, called John Robinson, who allegedly owned an Airline in Kenya called Africa International Airlines operating 5 Cargo Boeing 707's out of Nairobi. Sadly they did not exist, but "Ol President Lennox Sebe" believed every word Robinson told him, and in no time Robinson persuaded Sebe to part with a couple of million rands, and a 50/50 partnership was formed with Robinson having to supply the aircraft for the newly established Ciskei International (nogal) Airlines.

As Robinson had nothing and no credibility, (He lived at the Rand Club in JHB on credit card credit, and had an address at the World Trade Centre in London with no phone) he could'nt lease a decent airplane, so he called up a mate of his in the States (Denver), and together they took an old Convair 880 out of storage in the desert, serviced it a bit, flew it to Miami where it underwent another inspection, and eventually arrived in SA with an expired C of A, registered as N880C. No good for the transport of passengers though, as it was kitted out as a VIP transporter with double beds and golden taps, and as the story goes, once flew John Denver & Jefferson Airplane around the USA to their music concerts. An absolute dud for the newly formed Ciskei International Airways.

During the official opening of the airport, the Ciskei-ans were told to arrive at the airport "en masse" to welcome the "new airplane" and support their President, but unfortunately, the airplane never arrived. The Airline's directors, Laurie Kempster (Bean Counter Ex Magnum Airlines) Verity Wright (PRO Ex Magnum Airlines) & John Robinson were pacing up and down the terminal looking very sheepish and tried to hide away from a very persistent TV journalist who demanded to know where the airplane was.

So the opening of the airport turned into a fiasco with no airplane, which left Sebe furious. As the CofA had expired on the Convair 880, it was clear that that airplane would never fly. President Sebe kept on putting pressure on John Robinson and his crew to get the airline going, and eventually another Convair was leased from the USA. This time a Convair 990 with 120 pax seats. Things looked better, and Sebe was convinced that now they were on to something a great deal better!

The only problem was that it was also on the N register, and due to the inability of Robinson and his cronies to facilitate an operating license in terms of the bi-lateral agreements between SA & the Ciskei at the time, the machine never flew. Sebe kept on pumping money into a dead horse, and overnight Robinson & his cronies took what was left in the bank and ducked. So Ciskei International Airways, sadly came to its end.

The Convair 990 was eventually claimed by its legal owner in the USA, and was sold to a Spanish Operator, Spantex, which was really the only serious commercial operator of the Convairs globally. Spantex eventually also went broke.

For the rest, the 880 remained on the apron for about 8 years, running up huge parking fees, and eventually Billy Nel, an East London businessman, now MEC for Finance in the Eastern Cape Government, bought it for R1.00 and had it removed to his resort on the banks of the Bonza Bay River in East London where it remains to this day serving as a tea room.

The whereabouts of John Robinson these days are unknown. The last I heard, he was wanted by a number of Government people for questioning. The other former Board Directors, have their own businesses. One is in the liquer industry, and the other owns and operates a Travel Agency.

I hope they send people to the beautiful coastal resorts of the Eastern Cape.
Caco

Capetonian

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#17 Post by Capetonian » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:22 pm

As you say, a very South African story. I remember most of it.

Meanwhile back to the IL-62, there is some fascinating information about it here : http://www.aviationexplorer.com/IL-62_a ... facts.html including a picture of a 6 engined version!

I can definitely remember flying on IL-62s of LOT, Aeroflot, Tarom, and Interflug, probably also Malev and Balkan who I think operated them.

Cacophonix
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8327
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:14 pm
Location: Wandering

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#18 Post by Cacophonix » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:37 pm

Capetonian wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:22 pm
As you say, a very South African story. I remember most of it.

Meanwhile back to the IL-62, there is some fascinating information about it here : http://www.aviationexplorer.com/IL-62_a ... facts.html including a picture of a 6 engined version!

I can definitely remember flying on IL-62s of LOT, Aeroflot, Tarom, and Interflug, probably also Malev and Balkan who I think operated them.
Thanks for that link Capetonian. As you say tis a truly fascinating aircraft as so many of the Soviet era types were.

I just love the cockpit... particularly the nose wheel steering wheel on the Captain's yoke.

Ilyushin Il-62.JPG
Ilyushin Il-62.JPG (88.62 KiB) Viewed 1823 times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-62


Caco

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#19 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:02 pm

Sorry been watching 'Eye in the Sky' whilst 'er in doors wallowed in the bath. Very frustrating film. Know nothing about drones but the politics behind the strike and the pathetic politicians, strategic errors and wimp of a pilot who shouldn't be in the job. Col Dame Helen Mirren did a bloody good job though.

VC10 correct. I cruised .92 once when running late. Didn't 'arf guzzle the gas. Think we could do .98. Then the fuel gauges moved like an anti clockwise second hand.

Sun just setting and still 38 degs. It's going to be one of those cracking African sunsets.

The film for tonight is Sully. That's a good one.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Cacophonix
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8327
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:14 pm
Location: Wandering

Re: The really boring and totally pointless snippets thread IV

#20 Post by Cacophonix » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:17 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:02 pm
Sorry been watching 'Eye in the Sky' whilst 'er in doors wallowed in the bath. Very frustrating film. Know nothing about drones but the politics behind the strike and the pathetic politicians, strategic errors and wimp of a pilot who shouldn't be in the job. Col Dame Helen Mirren did a bloody good job though.

VC10 correct. I cruised .92 once when running late. Didn't 'arf guzzle the gas. Think we could do .98. Then the fuel gauges moved like an anti clockwise second hand.

Sun just setting and still 38 degs. It's going to be one of those cracking African sunsets.

The film for tonight is Sully. That's a good one.
There you go what did I say. =))

Miscalibrated Machmeter! Error of parallax on the Captain's part perhaps! :ymdevil:

Caco

Post Reply