FD2, I had a trio in a C97 once. Five of us above the mad number of pax. It was luxurious. As there were no seats for us we sat in check snug in tail. Two sofa benches and a truncated table, no windows of course.
We went up the front for a look at Dakota and Grand Canyon. I think we could walk round in front of the pilots. The engineers panel was literally dozens of dials. I think the dials could be rotated so that all the needles for each gauge could be aligned. One reading, say an oil temp, might be normally slightly different. ALign it and a quick glance could show one out of kilter.
About 1958 as an 11 year old my dearest wish was to visit Heathrow and have a goof at the aircraft. My great uncle obliged during a visit to London and we went up to the open observation deck where all these amazing machines were standing around in front of us. Pride of place in my mind went to the Stratocruisers of BOAC which I thought were amazing. Also in the mix were Comets and Caravelles. I can't remember any more as I've lost my 'spotter's' book but just to be in the open air with all that activity around me has stuck in my mind, as well as the glamour of the crews we passed in the terminal on our way back to the car park.
I, too, visited Heathrow during summer holidays 1959 and headed for the roof of the Queen's Building.
It was a particular 'treat' as I lived 'oop norf' in Northumberland.
As you said, Caravelles, but also Viscounts and Britannias.
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:14 am
by Bergerie 1
ExSp33db1rd,
Ben Prouse and Jumbo Jervis?
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:21 am
by ExSp33db1rd
FD2 ... Can't quite enlarge that photo enough to be sure, but maybe G-AKGM ?
My logbook shows .... 13th January 1959 Stratocruiser G-AKGM Capt. Meadows Kano - Barcelona hrs. 44 mins. N..u/s (Under supervision ) One of my early training flights as Second Officer Nav.
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:24 am
by ExSp33db1rd
ExSp33db1rd,
Ben Prouse and Jumbo Jervis?
Yes, I think it was Ben Prowse who lost his trousers. Jervis ? think Jarvis, but could be wrong.
4th Dec. 1959 Britannia 312 G-AOVR Capt. Prowse London / Boston / New York 11.10 + 0.55 - 12.05 N.1.
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:49 am
by Bergerie 1
Ben Prowse it was! And JJ was always a practical joker - a lovely man, I flew with him several times!
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:44 am
by FD2
Speedy - The photo is on the Stratocruiser Wiki page - G-AKGH I'm pretty sure ('Caledonia'?) The hours are missing on your mention of the Kano - Barcelona flight in GM - how many was it? I would guess about 7 hrs 44 mins as it's about 2,000 miles?
G-CPTN We lived near Wooler for 7 years which was lovely, but not very convenient if we wanted to see something in London! We'd rather have lived up north though.
PN - I'm very envious! The max number of pax was only about 90 wasn't it? It always looks larger in photos but they probably sat in armchairs with fixed tables in those days!! The engine, hydraulics etc normally steady reading instruments in the S61 were all set to 12 o'clock when in the cruise, which made it really easy to see any deviations straight away. Not exactly dozens like that flight engineer's though!
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:17 pm
by tango15
I assume that people are familiar with this website:
FD2, sadly my memory was of long ago, 55 years, and the first US aircraft I flew in. I can't remember tables but have this memory of luxury and a beige interior. A lot more luxurious than other military transports that I have flown in. As you say, a very large aircraft with lots of passengers for those days.
British and German civilian aircraft operated from the same facilities at Portela and Allied and Axis spies, including British, German, Soviet, and American, watched the traffic. This was especially the case for the Lisbon–Whitchurch route, which frequently carried agents and escaped POWs to Britain. German spies were posted at terminals to record who was boarding and departing flights on the Lisbon–Whitchurch route. Harry Pusey, BOAC's operations officer in Lisbon between 1943 and 1944 described the area as "like Casablanca [the film], but twentyfold." According to CIA archives: "Most OSS operatives in Spain were handled out of Lisbon under nonofficial cover because the diplomatic staff in Madrid made a practice of identifying intelligence agents to the Spanish police.
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:29 am
by ExSp33db1rd
FD 2 #48
I would guess about 7 hrs 44 mins as it's about 2,000 miles?
Correct, apologies.
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:19 pm
by TheGreenGoblin
An interesting lecture by the BOAC pilot Captain Jack Kelly Rogers who was Churchill's personal pilot.
TGG, In what way was he hapless? What did the old guard do to him that indicated that?
Don't take my wry, if somewhat cynical humour to heart Bergerie1. That's just me, and my humour is not to everyone's taste I am sure.
The young pilot starts like every student as a hapless tyro and goes on to great things and in this BOAC publicity video the "old guard", as I call them, are perfectly charming and all is harmony and decency. Nonetheless I have met those who, apparently had rougher rides than this idealised version would have us believe. I have no axe to grind here mind you but am a realist when it comes to these things. I have seen how previously ex-military dominated cliques are not necessarily easily amenable to a change in the order of things and I am sure there that were some who did not welcome purely civilian trained pilots into their domain.
What say you? Am I being unfair or simply ignorant of the facts?
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:02 pm
by Bergerie 1
TGG,
You are absolutely right about quite a few of the 'old guard'. But the training captains shown in that video were all excellent blokes, I know because I flew with them and was trained by them. However, I am sure that some of the 'more difficult' characters were kept well away from that film - and quite rightly so. There were some very difficult people, but they were in the minority. The problem is that it is always those ones who are rembered rather than the good ones.
My only problem with what you wrote was that it gave the impression that those two training captains may have given the hapless trainee a hard time. Whereas the opposite would have been the case. Tom Stoney in particular, the base training captain at Shannon comes over as rather wooden, in reality he was kind, genial and a good instructor. Similarly, Phil Hart-Lovelace during the route flight.
I wouldn't want the reputations of those two blokes sullied in any way. That was all.
You are absolutely right about quite a few of the 'old guard'. But the training captains shown in that video were all excellent blokes, I know because I flew with them and was trained by them. However, I am sure that some of the 'more difficult' characters were kept well away from that film - and quite rightly so. There were some very difficult people, but they were in the minority. The problem is that it is always those ones who are rembered rather than the good ones.
My only problem with what you wrote was that it gave the impression that those two training captains may have given the hapless trainee a hard time. Whereas the opposite would have been the case. Tom Stoney in particular, the base training captain at Shannon comes over as rather wooden, in reality he was kind, genial and a good instructor. Similarly, Phil Hart-Lovelace during the route flight.
I wouldn't want the reputations of those two blokes sullied in any way. That was all.
Your well made and reasonable, interesting points and insights based upon personal experience are what make these threads so worthwhile. No slight was intended to any of the gentlemen in that film and I am just glad that I have not insulted you in anyway as it struck me after you had posted your riposte to my post that you might have been one of them. I should have included all of the pilots in that film in my original "reasonable" comment.
Many thanks for starting this thread which I, with others here as well I am sure, am thoroughly enjoying, by the way.
Re: BOAC in the old days
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:25 pm
by Bergerie 1
You haven't slighted me in any way at all. I could tell you some stories about some gentlemen who had better not be named. I remember one, who was a supervisory captain, when receiving a letter from the flight training manager asking him to give S/O ........ (me) a landing who exploded, "It's not my job to teach bloody Hamble cadets how to fly a bloody aeroplane!" Why, I wondered, was he a supervisory captain? Good way to start a trip!!! But most were not like that at all.
but just to be in the open air with all that activity around me has stuck in my mind, as well as the glamour of the crews we passed in the terminal on our way back to the car park.
