Royal Navy RIP?

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Royal Navy RIP?

#1 Post by Boac » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:36 pm

According to today's BBC news, we do not have ONE of our nuclear powered attack/'killer' subs deployed anywhere on active service. There is reportedly one on 'sea trials' post repairs.

What a sad state we are in.

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#2 Post by Alisoncc » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:02 pm

If the RN have lost the plot perhaps we could resurrect the "V" force with Blue Steel or similar?
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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#3 Post by ian16th » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:53 pm

Alisoncc wrote:If the RN have lost the plot perhaps we could resurrect the "V" force with Blue Steel or similar?

The easiest one to get flying again would be a Varsity!

The original V Bomber!

Bomber Command Bombing School was using them before the Valiant came into service.

I know 'cos I was there and working on them.
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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#4 Post by Sisemen » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:17 pm

And we thought we had problems with the Collins class subs in Oz!

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#5 Post by Boac » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:39 pm

If the RN have lost the plot perhaps we could resurrect the "V" force with Blue Steel or similar?
- apart from that James Bond movie, I was not aware of the submersibility of the Vulcan............... :))

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#6 Post by ian16th » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:55 am

Boac wrote:
If the RN have lost the plot perhaps we could resurrect the "V" force with Blue Steel or similar?
- apart from that James Bond movie, I was not aware of the submersibility of the Vulcan............... :))

Sinking them was easy.

The clever part, would have been getting airborne again.
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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#7 Post by Cacophonix » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:27 pm

Sadly the British navy has been in serious decline for some time now.

http://www.maritime-executive.com/edito ... royal-navy

The MOD, theoretically independent, is like the government on so many matters and is in deep denial of the reality of the parlous situation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02 ... es-action/

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#8 Post by Cacophonix » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:45 pm

Alisoncc wrote:If the RN have lost the plot perhaps we could resurrect the "V" force with Blue Steel or similar?


Sadly opponents like Russia, with their S-400 missile system and associated long range radars, would knock such a force out of the sky at up to 200 miles from their targets.
Other global players like the Indians and the Chinese are buying this system or working on their own equivalents.

https://warisboring.com/russia-s-lethal ... .viwjsr25j

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#9 Post by Sisemen » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:47 am

And now they would like to re-engage retired matelots up to age 60 to man the new carriers. I guess that planning is not the RNs forte.

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#10 Post by Bob » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:20 am

Boac wrote:According to today's BBC news, we do not have ONE of our nuclear powered attack/'killer' subs deployed anywhere on active service. There is reportedly one on 'sea trials' post repairs.

What a sad state we are in.


The BBC understands the Royal Navy is struggling to maintain the four ageing Trafalgar-class submarines.

The three newer Astute-class submarines have suffered "teething problems".

The Sun reported that five of the seven submarines were having refits or maintenance after breaking down.

The paper said another was being repaired after crashing into a tanker, while HMS Astute was at sea but not on missions.


The Sun is privy to information regarding the operational status of a RN nuclear submarine at sea?
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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#11 Post by Boac » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:32 am

This is the article referred to:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2829355/u ... esnt-know/

It should not be difficult to establish the truth (the Trumpet permitting, of course....) of maintenance and sea trials. Personally I cannot be bothered! I think the rest of the 'facts' are worrying enough?

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#12 Post by Bob » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:39 pm

It should not be difficult to establish the truth


In this matter, I would hope and expect that it is extremely difficult
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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#13 Post by Boac » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:54 am

I think, Bob, it is as simple as counting the number of submarines in harbour/dock - Not too taxing, really. Don't you ever remember playing 'Submarines' as a kid?

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#14 Post by FD2 » Fri May 04, 2018 11:06 am

The Trident boat will be out in the Atlantic somewhere, so the nuclear deterrent is secure. As for the rest - they get more and more complex and cost more and more to design and build. Unless the Government bites the bullet and spends more we will have an even more pitiful force at sea than we have now. They should have stuck with the cats and traps carrier decision and we could have bought the brilliant and proven F18s from the States for a lot less than the F35s. We would also have had the ability to cross operate with the Americans and the French but they will not be able to use our decks. The Daring Class are being refitted with very expensive new engines and generators due to the MOD Procurement Executive getting the design spec wrong - they didn't expect them to work in warm water so much so they over-heated! The litany of cock ups goes on and we no longer have enough escorts to protect the carriers. The F35s are supposed to be ready for squadron service 'before the end of this decade' - meanwhile no fixed wing for HMS Queen Elizabeth. I bet Philip has a few choice opinions about it! What a bloody shambles successive Governments has made of all the UK defences - especially a very sad Royal Navy.

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#15 Post by Cacophonix » Fri May 04, 2018 6:17 pm

FD2 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:06 am
The Trident boat will be out in the Atlantic somewhere, so the nuclear deterrent is secure. As for the rest - they get more and more complex and cost more and more to design and build. Unless the Government bites the bullet and spends more we will have an even more pitiful force at sea than we have now. They should have stuck with the cats and traps carrier decision and we could have bought the brilliant and proven F18s from the States for a lot less than the F35s. We would also have had the ability to cross operate with the Americans and the French but they will not be able to use our decks. The Daring Class are being refitted with very expensive new engines and generators due to the MOD Procurement Executive getting the design spec wrong - they didn't expect them to work in warm water so much so they over-heated! The litany of cock ups goes on and we no longer have enough escorts to protect the carriers. The F35s are supposed to be ready for squadron service 'before the end of this decade' - meanwhile no fixed wing for HMS Queen Elizabeth. I bet Philip has a few choice opinions about it! What a bloody shambles successive Governments has made of all the UK defences - especially a very sad Royal Navy.
I have been reading the trenchant comments made about the F-35B and its potential operational performance off the new carriers made by the ever combative Commander Sharkey Ward DSC, AFC and if he is correct, then the operational potential of the new aircraft is suspect to say the least...

Written by 2014 but there is little to indicate that his warnings have been heeded.
Sharkey Ward.JPG
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Dear Secretary of State and Colleagues,

Further to my recent email and paper on the “UK response to ISIS Threat”, I now have pleasure in forwarding an educational paper on the Extreme Flight Safety Hazard that will be represented by the F-35B STOVL aircraft attempting to do Ship Rolling Vertical Landings on board Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers in all weathers by day and night.

This planned rolling vertical landing procedure will either result in major limitations on the amount of operational flying that can be conducted (additional to the constraints resulting from a ramp fitted deck with no catapult and trap) or, conversely, in major loss of life and equipment – or both.

A major change in course is necessary if our new carriers are to achieve the potential required of them by our national security and defence interests.

With kind regards,

Sharkey
F-35B STOVL Issues

HMS-Queen-Elizabeth-Carrier-C1.jpg
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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#16 Post by FD2 » Fri May 04, 2018 7:59 pm

I knew Sharkey back in 1967 when we served together in a minesweeper in Hong Kong before flying training and even back then at the age of 23 he could be somewhat tactless. He is essentially correct on the matter of the effectiveness of our new carriers, but his opinions on the conduct of the Falklands War and his way of expressing them have made him few friends amongst politicians, the RAF and some senior RN officers. I think the thing that annoyed him most personally, was the reception they got when they got back to Brize or Lyneham (can't remember which) from the RAF ground staff but more especially the lack of Admiral's staff from Yeovilton, which seems to have caused a surge of righteous anger. Before I get shot at I'd point out that this is just quoting his book - I had been a civilian for 5 years by then! The UK Government has made the wrong choice of the type of carrier needed and the RN will have to live with the fudge for the next however many years and make the best of it. :(

One of the RN's great carrier and fixed wing advocates, Admiral Sir John Treacher has just died. It's possible that the 'through deck cruisers' (Invincible Class carriers) and Sea Harriers may largely have come about following his battles with the Government when he was a Sea Lord.

Caco - I'll respectfully point out that the photo is of an Invincible Class carrier. ;)))

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#17 Post by Boac » Fri May 04, 2018 8:46 pm

Hmm! Sharkey.............

However, the way he describes the recovery on an F35 to the deck is frightening. In addition, if it cannot hover now for a landing - what, as Sharkey says, of it a year or so later, heavier, with possibly a hung up store!!!!!

Aye, Jimmy - you would'na get me up in one of dose. :))

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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#18 Post by FD2 » Sat May 05, 2018 2:58 am

Caco:

Apologies - I should have said it was Terence Strong that supplied the wrong photo in his blog. I had a smile when I saw he'd mis-spelled 'Sharkey' as 'Starkey' when I remembered his annoyance at being called 'Sharkey' instead of Nigel back then, but for some reason all Wards are called 'Sharkey'. He considered 'Sharkey' to be rather common... ;)))

Boac:

I agree - the approach and landing described sound like a recipe for disaster. It looks like another case of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.


HMS Invincible (R05).jpg
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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#19 Post by Cacophonix » Sat May 05, 2018 5:25 am

FD2 wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 2:58 am
Caco:

Apologies - I should have said it was Terence Strong that supplied the wrong photo in his blog. I had a smile when I saw he'd mis-spelled 'Sharkey' as 'Starkey' when I remembered his annoyance at being called 'Sharkey' instead of Nigel back then, but for some reason all Wards are called 'Sharkey'. He considered 'Sharkey' to be rather common... ;)))
FD2, I should have picked up on that obvious mistake! Well spotted!
Elizabeth Class Carriers.JPG
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Caco
Boac:

I agree - the approach and landing described sound like a recipe for disaster. It looks like another case of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
A VTOL aircraft is, to my mind, a compromise in that such an aircraft might swap speed and/or range for operational flexibility and the VTOL capability. The F-35B sounds like a compromise that is itself compromised, what with VTOL operational envelopes being circumscribed as described in the article above.

As of March 2018 the F-35B programme, itself, was also still compromised...
F-35B Tires
The heaviest of the three aircraft, the F-35B, didn’t only shake apart under stress-testing more quickly than the other two aircraft (see below), but, as the DOTE notes, “The program has struggled to find a tire for the F-35B that is strong enough for conventional high-speed landings, soft enough to cushion vertical landings, and still light enough for the existing aircraft structure. Average F-35B tire life is below 10 landings, well below the requirement for 25 conventional full-stop landings. The program is still working this problem, which will not be resolved within SDD.”

Finally, Behler’s report point to a refueling problem faced by the F-35B and F-35C.

The air refueling probe “tips are breaking too often, resulting in squadrons imposing restrictions on air refueling. The program is still investigating this problem.” I hear that the program is focussing on improved maintenance for the hose reel mechanism, as well as design changes to the probe.
https://breakingdefense.com/2018/01/f-3 ... ata-cyber/

The article does not say whether the problem where the F-35B take off setting jet efflux was damaging the decks of the carriers had been resolved?

Here is an Italian perspective on the issue.

https://theaviationist.com/2010/11/24/t ... -problems/

As for Commander Ward I read his Sea Harrier Over the Falklands and he certainly calls a "a spade a spade"! His bluntness is quite refreshing if not bad for his career (I would imagine)!


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Re: Royal Navy RIP?

#20 Post by FD2 » Sat May 05, 2018 5:48 am

The F35B:

I can't imagine that they'll solve all these problems:

Ten landings per tyre? They'll have to have an RFA stores ship devoted to these no doubt very expensive tyres!

Overheating the decks and asphalt? Don't know if Queen Elizabeth's decks are the same construction but guess they will be.

Not enough power when hot and heavy? New and costly engine version but see deck melting point above.

Refuelling probe too weak? Reinforce it - just a few more pounds to the zero fuel weight.

Sliding over the deck edge in rough weather? Fit good ejection seats - the aircraft are cheap as chips anyway. ;)))

Maybe they should just have built a second generation Harrier with modern avionics and two crew! It seems the authorities are always in thrall to the suggestion they have to have a new ship or aircraft instead of rebuilding something tried and tested to modern standards. The Harrier didn't have 'stealth' though...but is it needed?

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