Vulcan

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Pontius Navigator
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Re: Vulcan

#201 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue May 18, 2021 6:57 pm

G CPTN, lots. Normal runway ops was on 9,000 feet with plenty of runway for aerodynamic braking. If on a 6,000ft runway a stream was mandatory unless cross wind limits might be exceeded. Invariably, after one crew repack, it was always out of limits. For a really short landing, streaming at touch down and less than 145kts we could stop in 4,000 feet.
Retardation certainly pushed us back in our seats. We used to jettison below a certain speed, 80 kts I think.

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Re: Vulcan

#202 Post by G-CPTN » Tue May 18, 2021 7:11 pm

Thanks, PN.

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Re: Vulcan

#203 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue May 18, 2021 7:52 pm

Good video, difficult to date, I recognise one or two aircraft. I would guess around 1970/71 as the zoot suit was phased out and No 2s were back in.

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Re: Vulcan

#204 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 19, 2021 8:55 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:57 pm
G CPTN, lots. Normal runway ops was on 9,000 feet with plenty of runway for aerodynamic braking. If on a 6,000ft runway a stream was mandatory unless cross wind limits might be exceeded. Invariably, after one crew repack, it was always out of limits. For a really short landing, streaming at touch down and less than 145kts we could stop in 4,000 feet.
Retardation certainly pushed us back in our seats. We used to jettison below a certain speed, 80 kts I think.
Are you suggesting that you might stream the chute before touchdown? I guess a late go around might have been somewhat fraught if that was the case!
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Re: Vulcan

#205 Post by Boac » Wed May 19, 2021 9:40 am

In the flare normally. If you don't know you are landing by then.................... =))

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Re: Vulcan

#206 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 19, 2021 10:15 am

Boac wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 9:40 am
In the flare normally. If you don't know you are landing by then.................... =))
True I guess! :)

I was looking at that very interesting video ricardian posted and the Vulcan seems to have had a whacking set of speed /dive brakes on it as well. Clearly enough stopping power with the speed brakes, high alpha approach, landing and nose wheel hold off with the delta wing, plus the chute, not to have put one's shoe out and scrape it along the runway in order to stop before the boondocks!
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Re: Vulcan

#207 Post by Boac » Wed May 19, 2021 10:33 am

Not so much 'speed' brakes as 'lift dumpers' for the landing phase.

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Re: Vulcan

#208 Post by G-CPTN » Wed May 19, 2021 10:34 am

Although the Vulcan is a large aircraft, I don't imagine that there is lots of free storage space, but did you carry a spare 'chute?
Landing away and having used the 'chute meant a repack (how difficult was that?).

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Re: Vulcan

#209 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 19, 2021 11:27 am

Boac wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 10:33 am
Not so much 'speed' brakes as 'lift dumpers' for the landing phase.
Like a trailing at drag chute at about 100 foot you mean...

Thanks for the gen. ;)))

Look at the aerodynamic braking here. What a beautiful aircraft.

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Re: Vulcan

#210 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed May 19, 2021 11:44 am

I would not have considered them as lift dumps. We would fly circuits with the air brakes out and undercarriage down (which reminds me, where is Boing?).

Our normal landing weight was below 145 000lbs. Out of Akrotiri one day we tested the RAT at 35,000ft at the beginning of a trip. It failed which meant we not cleared to fly above 30,000 so had to burn off 25,000lbs of fuel. We elected to fly around Cyprus, off the coast, at low level with high drag air brakes. That did the trick.

On another occasion we used to do a simulated lay down attack on Morpheu jetty. We would approach from Kyrenia at 350kts, pull up to clear a headland, throttle back and select high drag air brakes while descending to the target.

Another technique which was more like a lift dump was a max rate descent at 10,000 feet per minute. That was quite sporty.

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Re: Vulcan

#211 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 19, 2021 12:12 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 11:44 am
I would not have considered them as lift dumps. We would fly circuits with the air brakes out and undercarriage down (which reminds me, where is Boing?).

Our normal landing weight was below 145 000lbs. Out of Akrotiri one day we tested the RAT at 35,000ft at the beginning of a trip. It failed which meant we not cleared to fly above 30,000 so had to burn off 25,000lbs of fuel. We elected to fly around Cyprus, off the coast, at low level with high drag air brakes. That did the trick.

On another occasion we used to do a simulated lay down attack on Morpheu jetty. We would approach from Kyrenia at 350kts, pull up to clear a headland, throttle back and select high drag air brakes while descending to the target.

Another technique which was more like a lift dump was a max rate descent at 10,000 feet per minute. That was quite sporty.
So air brakes as opposed to spoilers then. :-bd

You can see them out in that video above.
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Re: Vulcan

#212 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed May 19, 2021 12:31 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 11:27 am
Not so much 'speed' brakes as 'lift dumpers' for the landing phase.
Like trailing a drag chute at about 100 foot you mean...

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Re: Vulcan

#213 Post by Boac » Wed May 19, 2021 12:44 pm

I was referring to their function at landing speeds. Very little drag.

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Re: Vulcan

#214 Post by Alisoncc » Fri May 28, 2021 3:44 am

Used to get regular notifications on TOP of "V" force reunions at Newark years and years ago. Did they just dwindle away?
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Re: Vulcan

#215 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri May 28, 2021 6:53 am

Alison, it sure. Tankertrashnav organised one around 2005, 2 day event, evening trash, much beer drunk. On arrival you registered at various Ops Desks for sqn, stn, etc. Curiously at least 3 of the desks were manned by aircrew from my first sqn.

By general request he organised a second a few years later, two days but no function, and much fewer attendees. I think the weather was poor. It was the last he organised though he liaised with the museum for a V-Force.

The museum was very keen as it brought in money from an additional group.

Few Valiant mates survive or are well enough to travel. 60s vintage Vulcan and Victor crews are dwindling too. 90s vintage Victor 2 crews will be approaching 60 too.

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Re: Vulcan

#216 Post by ian16th » Fri May 28, 2021 9:44 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 6:53 am
Alison, it sure. Tankertrashnav organised one around 2005, 2 day event, evening trash, much beer drunk. On arrival you registered at various Ops Desks for sqn, stn, etc. Curiously at least 3 of the desks were manned by aircrew from my first sqn.

By general request he organised a second a few years later, two days but no function, and much fewer attendees. I think the weather was poor. It was the last he organised though he liaised with the museum for a V-Force.

The museum was very keen as it brought in money from an additional group.

Few Valiant mates survive or are well enough to travel. 60s vintage Vulcan and Victor crews are dwindling too. 90s vintage Victor 2 crews will be approaching 60 too.
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Re: Vulcan

#217 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri May 28, 2021 10:23 am

ian16th wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 9:44 am

Don't screw the lid down on my box just yet!
Old Valiant men don't fade away, they just develop cracks in their spars. ;)))
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Re: Vulcan

#218 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri May 28, 2021 5:18 pm

Assuming an age of 21 in 1965, your Valiant man is at least 77. Our first Vulcan AEO, Pete West, was 35 when he left the Valiant.

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Re: Vulcan

#219 Post by ian16th » Fri May 28, 2021 7:55 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 5:18 pm
Assuming an age of 21 in 1965, your Valiant man is at least 77. Our first Vulcan AEO, Pete West, was 35 when he left the Valiant.
We had a Flt. Sgt AEO on 214, who had been a Wop on Lincoln's. He seemed like an old man at the time, but these things are all relative, aren't they? The Boy Entrants and Apprentices schemes produced teenaged, experienced NCO's.

When I joined 214 I was a month short of my 22nd birthday. When I left the the squadron the 2nd time I was a month short of my 28th birthday!
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Re: Vulcan

#220 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:19 am

In a moment of madness, about two weeks ago I purchased a digital FlyPast magazine on the basis of an interesting article mentioned by C16. Well the magazine site's purchasing algorithm has since got me, and my interests, taped, and it sent me this suggestion this moning, so, of course I purchased it. I am wondering whether or not one or two of the denizens here might have contributed to the articles on this subject?

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