Bye bye Tornado!

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Bye bye Tornado!

#1 Post by Cacophonix » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:45 am

Was listening to AIr Commodore Mark Roberts talking about the history of the Tornado aircraft and previewing the flypasts that will occur over the next three days with some events occurring on the 28th of February as well.
RAF Tornado jets will be marking their retirement with a final flypast, it has been confirmed.

People across Britain will get a chance to say farewell to the fighter jets when they make a series of flights on 19, 20 and 21 February.

The fleet, based at RAF Marham in Norfolk, will be retired from service by the end of March.

Station Commander Group Capt Ian Townsend said it will be a "superb celebration" of the plane.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-47211832

I know that some folks here flew the aircraft and it would be good to get their perspectives on this long lived type.

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#2 Post by Cacophonix » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:23 am

This is where the Tornado can be seen during the next two days:
Wednesday 20 February

1pm - 1.15pm: RAF Honington
1.15pm - 1.30pm: Imperial War Museum Duxford - Former RAE Bedford – Cranfield Airfield - RAF Halton - RAF High Wycombe
1.30pm - 1.45pm: RAF Benson - HQ Land Forces, Andover, MOD Boscombe Down
2pm - 2.15pm: RAF Pembrey - MOD St Athan - Cardiff Airport
2.15pm - 2.30pm: Rolls Royce Filton - MOD Abbey Wood - MOD Shrivenham - RAF Brize Norton.

Thursday 21 February
11.15am - 11.30am: Leuchars Station
11.30am - 11.45am: RAF Tain
11.45am - 12pm: RAF Lossiemouth
https://www.forces.net/news/tornado-fly ... s-revealed

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#3 Post by Cacophonix » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:15 am

It is a real pity that Fox3 and his banana are absent or have ejected, as he appears to have done, as it would have been interesting to hear what that Tornado wallah had to say!

Oh well the RAF page will have to suffice.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircraft/tornado-gr41/



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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#4 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:36 am

I spent an hour outside yesterday waiting for the Tonkas to return from Spadeadam towards Leeming.
'Normally', sorties over Spadeadam would return over my house (in a direct line along a low-flying corridor), but, although I thought I heard them a few miles west of my position as they headed for Spadeadam they didn't appear (a couple of Tucanos did which might have been photographing the event) even though I waited long after the scheduled time.

So that's the end of the Tonkas (having said goodbye to the Jaguar some years ago).

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#5 Post by Cacophonix » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:56 pm

The British Tornado Test Pilot.
Lieutenant-Commander Paul Millett
Lieutenant-Commander Paul Millett, who has died aged 78, fought in the Korean War and as a test pilot made vital contributions to the successful development of many aircraft.

n the two years after graduating from the Empire Test Pilots' School (ETPS) in 1958, Millett flew 44 types of aircraft including the twin-engine, stainless-steel Bristol T188 research plane. Millett was one of only three men to fly the T188, which was intended to investigate the effects of heat at supersonic speeds.

The aircraft was not a success, however, as its engines kept stalling after it had broken the sound barrier. Indeed, after his second flight in the T188, Millett entered the officers' mess sporting a new 1000mph club tie and a silver "C" gliding badge, remarking that he had just flown the only aircraft in which he could qualify for both in the same sortie.

In the 1960s Millett tested the Blackburn Buccaneer low-level bomber. The official account of his flight on May 13 1965 was that "during level acceleration with flaps down, [the aircraft] developed progressive increase in nose-down attitude necessitating more and more stick until tailplane stalled. Crew ejected safely." In the cockpit, Millett's description of the same incident – as the aircraft plunged nose-down towards the ground from a low altitude – was considerably briefer and more robust: "Oh ----." He and his observer were lucky to survive and he was awarded the Queen's Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air.

On February 23 1971 Millett flew a pre-production model of the Anglo-French Jaguar from Preston to Istres (a journey of 738 miles) in 85 minutes and in September that year, after intensive test-flying, he flew a French pre-production model from Bordeaux to Warton, Lancashire, to continue engine development trials. His intensive flying enabled the first production Jaguar to roll out in May 1972, only two years after the British decision to order the aircraft. It would see service in the RAF for the next three decades.

In the 1970s, Millett flew the tri-national Multi Role Combat Aircraft, better known as the Tornado, testing the German prototype over West Germany on August 14 1974. Then after taxiing trials at Warton in October that year, and after days of delay for bad weather, Millett took off on October 30 for a 60- minute flight of breathtaking airmanship to show off the new British aircraft to the watching workforce. His display included a short supersonic run, low-level swept-wing passes and a full roll over the aerodrome, together with a touch and go landing and single-engine approach and climb-away.

During a high-speed run over the airfield on a test flight in April 1975, Millett suffered a double-engine malfunction; he made a rapid but safe landing.

By July trials were progressing so well that a refuelling probe was fitted and tested by Millett, and soon after the aircraft entered service with the RAF. He was awarded the OBE for his services to aviation.

Paul Millett was born on March 2 1931 in Swindon. His father was an engineer and Paul was educated at the Commonweal School until he volunteered during National Service for a short service career in the Fleet Air Arm.

He learnt to fly at RAF Syerston in Nottinghamshire and gained his wings in January 1951. His first operational aircraft was the Fairey Firefly, flying in 821 Naval Air Squadron from the carrier Triumph where an early endorsement in his logbook identified him as a natural aviator.

His suffered his first accident when an engine failed and he crashed in an Irish bog: but Millett was already skilled enough to extend the glide to stop by an island so he could climb out without getting his feet wet.

From 1952 he fought in the Korean War. While coming in to land on the light carrier Glory in February 1953 the starboard wing of Millett's Firefly dipped and caught a wire as he cut the power. The aircraft crashed over the side and began to sink. As Millett was buffeted in the ship's wake he struggled to free his passenger, but both were picked up by the planeguard destroyer Comus.
Millett went on to clock up, while still a sub-lieutenant, 100 combat sorties and 212 deck landings and was awarded the DSC. Returning to Britain, he was appointed to the Central Flying School to become an instructor, where he also flew his first jet, the Gloster Meteor.

He taught flying in the Sea Fury, the Firefly and the Vampire jet and examined in instrument flying until in 1958 he was sent to ETPS.

Millett retired as British Aerospace's chief of flight operations to lead its al-Yamamah arms sales to Saudi Arabia. There he showed his leadership and diplomacy by establishing good relations with senior Saudi military personnel and various princes. Uniquely among his team he learnt Arabic and despite the heavy, late-night social round he was always in his office by 06.30 the next morning.

He was modest, forever optimistic, and thirsted for knowledge. In his free time in Saudi Arabia he explored the desert for fossils and rocks and took the more interesting specimens to the Natural History Museum in London. In Oman, when he became intrigued by seashells, he learnt to dive aged 60 so he could search for them underwater. He was a panellist on Brain of Britain in the 1970s, and took an Open University degree in Earth Sciences.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obitua ... llett.html

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#6 Post by ian16th » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:15 pm

They also served.

This is an extract from an e-mail that was in response to me 'finding' a former Boy Entrant who passed out with me in 1954 and also served on 214 Sqdn with me 1959-62.
Hello Ian,
Sorry I've been so long in answering. I am allotment rep.and just opened up a new site. The council left me to mark out the plots (much recollection of school geometry to get the areas equal.) and issue them to a long waiting list. Needless to say no pay is involved. I am sure this country survives only through voluntary work done by OAPs and ex-service people.

When I left Marham I was sent unwillingly onto recruiting duties; my protests were in vain and it was made plain that all would not go well with my career if I persisted.

Two and a half years later I left Luton Careers Office and went to CSDE as a Flt Sgt. There I entered the crazy world of spares provisioning.

Five years later I was posted to the first Tornado engine bay at Cottesmore as a WO.

My ambition had been achieved but It wasn't the same target any more. Remember the days when a WO was a god who pointed to airmen and said GO. Well I found that there was no one to point to and the work load was heavy. As a result I did three years (enough for the pension) and opted out.
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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#7 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:23 pm

Flew the F3 from 1988 to 1993, something over 600 hrs. Most of my tac weapons course mates went to the GR, and I was originally told I would be going GR. With the logic anyone who's been in will understand, I won the bombing trophy and was sent to the fighter variant.
The F3 was designed as an interceptor rather than an air superiority fighter, but we didn't have any of those so we had to do our best with it. Should the RAF have bought the F-14 or F-15? Doesn't matter, we didn't and we had to use the F3 to go up against them. MY first DACT was against a Phantom flown by 2 QWIs. I had 70 hours on the F3, though to be fair I had an excellent ex-phantom QWI behind me and I did what I was told ;) We stalemated on all 3 intercepts, they would have run out of fuel first, and I am not God's gift to aviation. Subsonically, it flew like a big Hawk once one had mastered the extra lever for wingsweep. It was so easy to land normally even I could do it! At high level it was very smooth, but also short on power due to the turbofan engines being best at low level. All high level work had to be done with maximum concentration by the pilot, long "run ups" for supersonic intercepts and very careful turns. There were no clues to high speed stalls, no 'feel'. It would turn all day at M1.5 and 67 degrees of bank, pull 'g' at 68 degrees bank and it would stall and fall 7,000 feet before you'd recovered it, intercept gone. At low level though it was in its element. The 'burners gave a huge kick in the backside and just kept pushing. I flicked from Mach to IAS once on a low level chasedown over the North Sea and saw 835 kts, when the book limit was 800 kts. I detected not the slightest rattle or shimmy (the jets were 3 years young then), so I thought "F#ck it", flicked back to Mach, turned the radio up and kept accelerating. I have no idea what I eventually reached, but a former colleague has seen 870 kts. The official world record for the Sageburner Phantom was 784 kts. I remember taking a fitter up for a jolly from Cyprus. We'd just left the approach frequency about 10 miles from the airfield, and I asked him what he'd like to do.
"Can we go supersonic, Sir?"
"We are"
It was that smooth. Tornado was the first aircraft with FBW (with a manual backup to the tailerons), so the stick was a manoeuvre rate demand lever, and if you held the stick central the computer would be wiggling the tailerons around taking out the gusts and bumps to give a very smooth ride.
I found the systems to be generally very reliable. As the jets were quite new there were often teething troubles on startup, but 30 seconds with a techy on the ground intercom "Reset this, retest that"-type of thing, you generally got airborne. Having one spare jet on the line normally ensured a four ship got airborne as a four ship from an airframe point of view. The original radar was a dog. We flew the odd W list radar on the OCU, with Z list for my first year on the Squadron. One's chances of getting a complete and reliable air picture were very low. It was a very difficult and slow squadron workup for a new pilot. My Combat Ready check ride was leading a four ship, and I'd had to lead 6 ships too. The reason was because you might be the only guy in the 6 ship with a good radar, even if you were the #6 nominally, so you might have to lead the whole formation. Radar problems and failures were very common, although very experienced navs could get surprising good data by switching to the antediluvian pulse mode and fettling it. A further problem was that the radar management required all the nav's efforts most of the time, so the pilots actually did the navigation. Since around half our training was low level overland or affiliation (our Boss said "YES!" to every fun request and OCB invented the stats for 11 Group ;) ), this might explain why my bombing trophy got me sent to F3s. Around the Gulf War we rapidly got the Stage 1 radar, which was much better, and Stage 1+ which I saw in my last year was what it should have been in 1988, WYSIWYG. My final CR check was back as a wingman, as one would expect for a first tourist, as the radar was now reliable enough.
The jet being easy to fly, coupled with the AAR capability meant one could be up on patrol for 5, 6, even 7 hours. One would take off from one airfield, land at another, do the turnround oneself, then get back airborne and return to convoy protection duty. The twin Inertial Navs meant, unlike previous generations of aircraft, you knew where you were. The flight computer meant you had a God's Eye view plan display (also novel), and the tracks of slow movers like tankers would actually still be there when you turn around on CAP to face them again. It was actually very good at its design job, defending the UKADR, often from remote airfields like the Western Isles. Air-Air refueling was very tricky to learn, because the big nose moved the basket quite a lot in the last few feet, but most of us found it quite straightforward once mastered. Silent procedures night tanking was a favourite of mine. Just pitch up next to the tanker's cockpit at 2 in the morning, a little speck of light in the darkness, see them sipping coffees, wait for one of them to look out of the window, then the hoses would trail, you'd drop back, tank off the traffic light signals on the pod, then f#ck off back to your CAP without a word said.

If anyone has made it this far and wants more, ask. I do requests, if you have specific questions, such as comparisons with other jets.

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#8 Post by ian16th » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:32 pm

Yes please.

As a former Radar Fitter, I'd love to hear about the infamous 'Blue Circle'.
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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#9 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:29 pm

The basic problems with the radar were:
1) Made by GEC not Ferranti - bit like hiring Laurel and Hardy when you could have hired Einstein and Edison.
2) Folded Cassegrain antenna. Better in theory but not in practice. Big sidelobes which would kill you given half a chance by generating submarine targets on low level oversea intercepts - I got that twice, once at night. The good news was that the Soviets had nicked that design for our primary opposition, the Flanker. So, with a single seat and half the yearly flying hours, they were far more screwed than we were! ;)
3) The computer speed. I had done some display programming on early computers at school, so I could see where all the errors were occurring. Essentially, the radar resolution coupled with the processing cycle times meant the computer could not work out reliably between a target that had moved or a potential false echo. Add that to the antenna being more prone to generating false echoes in the first place, and one had plots dipping in and out of display, velocity vectors jumping all other the place, and any target turns showing up way late. I flew a bit with an ex-Gannet radar operator as my nav, and he knew all the tricks with a pulse set. It was quite an education in radar. After he'd said his incantations, we could see the targets in pulse, even look down on fighter size targets, at 30 miles over sea. However, the computer display would be a mess of plots jumping around, and appearing and disappearing. The junior navs (not many, thankfully) sometimes couldn't find anything in any mode.
Obviously for targets that were bigger, closer, look up, and not turning much, it performed better. The best approach was to literally sit on one's hands for the first 30 seconds and let the thing settle down. Next, adopt the standard Lightning intercept profile - Stick him on the nose, watch him drift, call him a 140 anyway, accelerate to hold him at 20 degrees off the nose. Then once you'd got inside 20 miles you would get something usable if you had made the right sacrifices to the Gods that morning. If you hadn't, you relied on the one guy in the formation who did have a half-decent air picture (it would be no better) to guide you all in, then once inside 20 miles you'd be in the right bit of sky to do a rapid scan, sort, lock, shoot when the plots did start appearing. Done well, most of you could get head sector missiles off, but you'd be working like a one armed paper hanger with an oven glove on.
Because of the false target problem, the radar was in practice quite vulnerable to clever jamming. It would work OK against straight power jamming, but gate-stealers and the like would fool it every time. Hopefully the Skyflash would go into its magic mode and relieve you of the problem, but there were a number of manual overrides, front and back, which might enable you to keep the radar pointing at the real target. One had to be ready to use them at a moment's notice.
I fired one skyflash for real, against a simulated cruise missile right on the deck, so a very tricky target. The radar lock was all over the place, but I had the wizard nav behind me, who reckoned it had the right target, so for a fraction of a second when the HUD picture looked right, I squeezed the trigger and prayed. Direct Hit! Deep Joy!
Once we got the Stage One radar with the faster computer, it got a lot better. I remember an early intercept with it, when we picked up a box four of mudmovers on the deck, overland, at 55 miles, steady plots. We couldn't believe it, thought it must be a lie, but it wasn't and we simu-shot all of them in the face and went home for tea and medals. Tick VG. Of course, sometimes it was a lie still, but it was a lot better than Z list.
As to the radar tech side of things, I know the QWIs and Nav Radar Leader would often be off talking to the radar fitters, but I was not involved in that. Essentially, I think every little tweek had to be made to maximise transmitter and scanner performance, in order to make the raw signals as clear as possible. There was a lot of swapping of modules between aircraft in order to get the best combination of kit that worked well together. This occurred with all the backseat stuff, including INs and computers, especially on detachment when spares were short. I know the techies would sometimes be up all night trying to get a "matching set" in as many aircraft as possible. This was not unpleasant work in Cyprus or Gib, but we also went to Stornoway and Noggieland :((
I should perhaps add that we had a very good atmosphere on both my squadrons between aircrew and engineers. I think most had been picked for some level of experience or skill because it was a new jet, and we all realized that everyone was working their best to get something out of the aeroplane. The mixed parties on detachment were very pleasant, and the Bosses were keen on annual opportunities for the SNCOs to give the aircrew a poke in the chest.

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#10 Post by Cacophonix » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:49 pm

Ah the man is back. I shall read with interest thank you Fox3WheresMyBanana! :-bd

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#11 Post by Cacophonix » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:15 pm

Fox3 you talk about the aircraft being designed for relatively low level operation, how did this square with its intercept role and did it have to climb like the clappers in the manner of the venerable Lightning or was it meant to engage in a stand off mode with missiles? Given some of your comments about the early radar systems it makes one wonder how all this would have panned out if the Russians had genuinely come calling?

Was it up to the that job and how did it compare in its role as an interceptor in comparison to the Lightning?

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#12 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:16 pm

The original design was, I was told by people who knew, was for the low level bomber, and the same shape as the F3. That wouldn't fit in German Navy HASs, so the GR1 was shortened which gives it that stumpy look. The F3 was the 'correct length' and so looked fast and duly went fast. The engines were designed for low level cruise fuel economy, at which they were very good. For the F3, it needed digital engine control and bigger 'burners to get the Mach 2 performance at altitude. You could get the F3 to 30,000 ft in 2 minutes, as it had a short take-off roll, then you'd lift the gear, hold it level, accelerate to 600 kts just above the runway (bloody quickly) and pull straight up. However, you'd be doing 300 kts at 30,000 ft, not 500 kts at 40,000 feet like the Lightning. I did one practice scramble on QRA. We went from standing in the crewroom to airborne in 6 1/2 minutes, with a pre-set up jet of course. So, probably about 75% of the Lightning in terms of airframe launch capability. The F3 was better than the Phantom, just. When you got to height, you had (by 1991) a radar than could track 8 bomber or 4 fighter targets reliably, at 3 times the range of the Lightning look-down (and 50% more than the Phantom), with 8 head sector missiles (4 semi-active radar, 4 heatseeker) rather than 2 stern sector missiles. Plus inertial nav, very good radar warning gear, and a stowable AAR probe which meant you could refuel and do Mach 2, whereas the Lightning with its fixed probe could refuel or do Mach 2. In summary, if you were based at Binbrook and needed to defend the Ottringham VOR beacon from a single Soviet bomber dropping gravity nukes, you wanted a Lightning. If you wanted to defend the UKADR from 200 miles offshore, at night, against a big (90 Badgers or 60 Backfires was the the main threat) package of Soviet LRA bombers, with jamming support and maybe an escort of Flankers, using standoff missiles, an F3 was worth a thousand Lightnings. 'Good fun in peacetime' was how the Lightning pilots who flew the F3 referred to their WIWOL days.
The F3 was designed to operate autonomously. Around 1990, the intercepts with the Fighter Controllers went something like.
"Mission 31, 32, vector 270, buster. 4 Targets, low, 45 miles, 10 left"
"Mission 31, contact, Judy, Judy"
and that was it. The FC branch was out of a job. Well, compared to what the Lightning and Phantom required, they were. They could still be very useful tucked away on an AWACS, or providing second echelon information on multiple packages on big exercises, but Alpha control was gone. Once the F3 got Link 16, just after I left, the F3s were providing the air picture to everyone else.
We always tried to get other fighters to play without Fighter Control support, and we could then at least hold our own most of the time against F15s, etc. If it was night and low level as well, everyone else was toast - the two seat advantage.
The engines forced a number of changes. We liked to CAP at 25k not 40k, and AAR at 20k not 30k. The tactics involved getting the F3 up to 50k and getting the Skyflash missile to do the rest up to any high fliers, like Foxbats. We could get to M1.4 around the tropopause quite respectably fast but Mach 2 took longer than Phantom or Lightning. Intercepts would sometime develop where turbojet fighters would refuse to come down and fight with us on our low turf, and we'd be equally reluctant to go play in their playground. We didn't have the performance up there, and they'd run out of fuel in no time trying to turn down low with us. You could get an F3 up to above 65,000 feet (people did), but you'd be coming back down quite soon after, and a Lightning could get over 80,000 feet. But then, with only the Firestreak missile, he had to.

Given the Soviet tactics, limited flying hours, and the fact that the Flankers had nicked our crap radar design, I was very confident in our ability to do the job, especially night/bad weather, which is when the bombers would have come. However, we didn't have enough fighters to do the job thoroughly, and doubtless a few nuke missiles would have got through. We'd have won a messy war. Phantom or Lightning would have lost a late 1980s WW3. To be fair though, the Lightning would have won in the 1960s and the Phantom in the 1970s. So, we all could have done the job at the time.

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#13 Post by ian16th » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:24 pm

Fox,

Many thanks.

A very interesting read. When I left Marham in Feb 1965, after 13 years, I'd not worked on any RAF radar with transistors!
The Valiant's that were scrapped that same month, had WWII vintage Gee-H fitted.
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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#14 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:47 pm

Did you have the same need to swap the tubes, etc, around to find combinations of bits that would work well together?

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#15 Post by G-CPTN » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:04 pm

After TSR2 was canned, I was lead to believe that the 'ground-following navigation radar' was incorporated into the Tornado.

"It was said" that the Tornado could be flown at low altitude whilst evading terrain that might result in CFIT . . .
. . . such as flying into a blind canyon . . .


? ? ?

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#16 Post by ian16th » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:18 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:47 pm
Did you have the same need to swap the tubes, etc, around to find combinations of bits that would work well together?
We called them valves! Its the 'Mericans that called them tubes!

No, is the short answer, valves were either good or bad, marginal in a valve tester = bad.
In a Green Satin and Blue Silk Doppler, suspect = bad! The were wired and soldered in place, and couldn't be tested after removing them.

You must remember we had very little signal processing, signals were displayed and the Nav's, like your Gannet guy, used the Mk1 eyeball to 'process' the signals.

Kit such as all marks of Gee, early Rebecca's, LORAN, H2S, Orange Putter and high level radio altimeter all displayed pretty raw signals that needed interpreting by human grey cells.
The later Rebecca became DME and had a meter display in fighters. The Green Satin and Blue Silk also processed the signals sufficiently to display by meter. So did the low level Radio Altimeter Mk 5.

Re: Gannets, I worked on some! When at Istres we serviced the RN a/c the passed through. Just refuelling and re-oiling. The drivers were terrible at taxiing, they were used to stopping and getting out, leaving the 'handlers' to move the beasts.
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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#17 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:34 pm

We had a nav who'd transferred from the GR, and my TWU course mates had gone GR, so I learned a bit about the mudmover variant. I do not know the history of the radar, but it could fly a 200 ft agl track in all weathers. I do not think it had (in my day at least), any kind of terrain mapping that would allow it to fly around the corners in canyons (like later cruise missiles can), but obviously the navs would plan routes that kept them mainly in valleys. It would pull up to avoid 'dead ends' correctly, but would therefore have to pull up quite early. The 'g' limits for the following could be changed - there was a 'soft' and a 'hard' ride, the latter keeping the jet closer to the ground during changes. Obviously there would be wind turbulence limits for the 'hard' ride. There was a display which showed the terrain section directly ahead, and the planned path, so the pilot could monitor it, called the 'E' scope I believe. The E scope could be flown manually, but I believe that was a war-goer only in IMC. A6 Intruders and F-111s had had the technology since the Vietnam War, so I believe it was pretty straightforward stuff. We did not fly intercepts against GRs doing TFR, nor when we simulated launches against targets of opportunity that must have been TFRing did they manoeuvre. They did not have the technology (then, at least) to break off track and stay low level. I think the TFR only had a narrow view forwards. The nav and targetting kit was very accurate. The nav (who was exceptional) had a 115 ft CEP average for iron bomb loft/toss. Since this meant the bomb was released from three miles away, I thought this was pretty impressive, especially since the likely weapon was a bucket of instant sunshine. That would definitely spoil your whole day.

Also, the nav display from the TSR2 ended up in the Harrier GR3, I believe. Experts can confirm/deny.

Ian 16th - Forgive me. I have trained myself to speak North American now I live here, and occasionally forget to switch back.

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#18 Post by G-CPTN » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:05 pm

Thanks for the response.

It was my mother-in-law who was a TSR2 devotee and she raged when it was canned.

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#19 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:18 pm

I've heard strong arguments from both sides, the best negative being that, whilst it flew well, the development was rapidly becoming a financial black hole. My uncle worked in financing at Warton, and leaned toward that view. Canada has its own TSR2-style saga with the Avro Arrow. In both cases, senior politicians and even senior military of the other services were clearly out to cancel the aircraft whether it was a success or not. Pick a side.
Always worth asking the question - How did this help the US manufacturers?

Follow The Money!!!

Then of course, 10 years later, you get the equally dumb reaction of "No. We are d@mn well buying British this time", and I ended up flying the F3 and not the F15.
I had a trip in an F15 once. Hey ho.

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Re: Bye bye Tornado!

#20 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:38 am

Thank you for yourr fulsome, informative and interesting response Fox3.

Caco

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