Vulcan

[Boac]

Indeed, Alison, and all those left on the ground destined to become shadows on the apron. A MAD scenario indeed, as UP says.

[TheGreenGoblin]

I suspect that by mid 1960's the chances of Vulcan ALBM's even getting through to the primary targets in the USSR were very limited and even if one or two had done, there would have been nothing left to come home to all relevant airfields in the UK and primary targets here having been obliterated in the interim.

The move to Polaris and its operational acceptance in 1968 was a credible step forward in deterrence as by then the Vulcan solution was not a credible one and the Soviets would certainly have know that.

[Boac]

Agreed, apart from the ligature which then ties us to any POTUS nutter...............

The development of the low-level attack role for the Vulcan was really the last straw on the camel's back. A definite death sentence for the crew.

[k3k3]

We firmly believed that we wouldn't be seeing our aircrews again. This was the early sixties. In the air force occifers were canon fodder, so ..... easy come easy go.

Alison

My father was an apprentice butcher when he was called up in WW2, he was asked which service he wanted to join. As his father had been gassed and deafened in the first round he decided against the army, suffering from sea sickness on the I.o.W. ferry he knew the navy wasn't for him, knowing the RAF sent the officers and SNCOs off to fight and the erks stayed on the ground he said RAF please.

So they put him in the navy, he spent most of his time in the far east being wounded and sunk too many times to mention, at the end of the war he was involved in the liberation of the P.O.W. camps, the things he saw there stayed with him and he suffered a number of nervous breakdowns, I suppose these days it would be called PTSD and he would receive therapy but back then...

[TheGreenGoblin]

Agreed, apart from the ligature which then ties us to any POTUS nutter...............

The development of the low-level attack role for the Vulcan was really the last straw on the camel's back. A definite death sentence for the crew.

True. I do sometimes wonder if the UK had girded it loins and decided to commit the necessary money, resources and intellectual energy and capital to developing an ICMB and necessary guidance systems, based around the Black Knight (and then R3/R4 - Black Arrow) booster which were extant and a credible vehicle, not an inconsiderable programme, we might have, in the long term, escaped the US noose that we find ourselves in with respect to Trident.

[Pontius Navigator]

TGG, the problems with our missiles and with Thor was the use of liquid fuels. Had we then gone for our own solid fuel system we would have needed to consider a silo system to survive a first strike. In UK, while airfields were seen as probable targets we seemed to accept them and the Thor sites.

Greenham Common showed that the CND would not have tolerated UK solo systems. They weren't too keen on the Buccaneer and Nimrod based either though Machrihanish was probably a bit too remote even for them.

SLBM was the only way to go and the way the French went eventually.

[TheGreenGoblin]

TGG, the problems with our missiles and with Thor was the use of liquid fuels. Had we then gone for our own solid fuel system we would have needed to consider a silo system to survive a first strike. In UK, while airfields were seen as probable targets we seemed to accept them and the Thor sites.

Greenham Common showed that the CND would not have tolerated UK solo systems. They weren't too keen on the Buccaneer and Nimrod based either though Machrihanish was probably a bit too remote even for them.

SLBM was the only way to go and the way the French went eventually.

Your points are well made, and, as you say, SLBM (using solid rocket boosters) was clearly the way to go, despite the British love affair with High Test Peroxide and Kerosene liquid fuels. If the French could do it, so could have we. As it was we lost our bottle, lost our know how, many indigenous rocket engineers going States side in the 60's/70's and lost our independence. Polaris was the best we could do all things considered, despite the nominal independence, the Chevaline Programme offered the UK technology basis at huge cost.

Interestingly the first missile silo was built by the Germans in France - La Coupole and the idea of hardened silo's in the UK was taken seriously and models built, but post war shortages of concrete etc. made the likelihood of such development in the UK in the 50's very unlikely.

[ian16th]

I keep telling people, it wasn't serious, I was posted from the V-Force to Akrotiri in Oct 62!

I think it was an exercise to check that the RAF admin types could shuffle paper in an emergency!

[ian16th]

Mustn't forget that we had nukes at Akrotiri and 2 Sqdn's of Canberra's to strike at 'the soft underbelly' of the Warsaw Pact.

I see that according to Wiki there were 48 nukes stored there. We didn't have that many Canberra's! Could the Canberra carry more than one weapon at a time?

[Pontius Navigator]

Ian, no, the Red Beard, aka Bomb, Aircraft, 2,000lb MC HE was a big beast too about 30 inch in diameter and had flip out fins to fit the bomb bay.

[ian16th]

Ian, no, the Red Beard, aka Bomb, Aircraft, 2,000lb MC HE was a big beast too about 30 inch in diameter and had flip out fins to fit the bomb bay.

Never saw one. As I've said my time there was in the Electronics Centre and my Green Satin stuff went to 13 Sqdn PR9's. The bomber sqdns had Blue Silk.

[Pontius Navigator]

I never saw a Red Beard outside the SSA. I guess they will have done loading practice on the Canberra but under strict security at Sir.

Once saw one on a Buccaneer. At a display at Cranwell. It came is for a simulated LABS attack. We watched open mouthed as we saw the RB in the open bomb bay.

[Undried Plum]

We firmly believed that we wouldn't be seeing our aircrews again. This was the early sixties. In the air force occifers were canon fodder, so ..... easy come easy go.
Alison

I remember the answer from an erk who I asked, in a polite opening gambit to what I thought would be vacuous conversation: Why did you join up?

He said: "See, it's like this, Sir. If I join the Army they'll send me orf to war in a tank and I'll burn to death. If I join the Navy, they send me to sea and I'll drown. So, I joined the **** air force, Sir."

Intrigued by his logic, I enquired further why he chose the RAF as a career.

"It means that if we have a war, I'll be able to strap you in and polish the top of yer 'ead wiv ma sleeve and send you orf to war and **** die yerself, Sir.

Sometimes it's bloody hard to keep a straight face.

[Pontius Navigator]

Very true. There was a regular complaint from scribbles that our flying pay was unfair, always marketed as skill pay rather than danger money. When said that they too could have this extra money provided they agreed that every year 10% would be selected at random and at no notice shot.

Of my initial nav course 50% did not survive to retire.

[tango15]

My own experience, such as it was, with the Vulcan was somewhat different. Returning from a trip to the southern countries of South America(except for Argentina), in late March '82, where the 'Las Malvinas son Argentinas' signs had already begun to appear and with only the BBC World Service as an authoritative news source, I was surprised at just how serious the situation had become. On the Monday morning, I went to work at Woodford, parked my car and walked through what we called 'New Assembly' and was even more surprised to find four Vulcans sitting there, with the Nimrod and 748 assembly units scattered about like discarded toys. I stopped and asked one of the foremen what was going on. He hastily put his finger to his lips and said, "Briefing at 1000." The briefing duly took place, from which it became clear that the Vulcans had been brought in late the previous evening from Waddo and were about to be prepared for action. All other assembly work was to be stopped until the aircraft had been fully resotred for their missons, which at that time were still secret. I learnt later that people were despatched to scrapyards around the UK with brown envelopes, in order to retireve some of the parts which had been discarded. Work continued on the Vulcans day and night and a few days later there were some test flights and they disappeared, never to be seen or heard of again, until they were a lot further south of Manchester.

A month later, I was in Rio, when suddenly the TV programme I was watching was interrupted and an announcement was made that a British bomber was landing at Rio's Galeao international airport. O Globo, the Brazilian equivalent of Sky, quickly had cameras at the scene and there was the Vulcan on finals. 'Geez', I thought,' have we declared war on Brazil as well?' A thought brought about by the fact that explosions had been heard in the skies around Rio. All became clear quite quickly; it transpired that the 'explosions' were sonic booms from the Mirages sent up to intercept the Vulcan, but the roads to Galeao quickly became jammed with traffic, as people rushed out to see the beast. The crew were kept on the military base at Galeao, but from all I heard, were treated very well, while the British diplomats rushed around trying to appease the Brazilians and the Brazilians tried to appease the Argentinians.

[Pontius Navigator]

Tango, fascinating.

Post war we sent a Herc into Brazil on humanitarian grounds. The casualty, a Polish seaman was whisked off to hospital. The UK MoD plan was for the Herc to return immediately to the Falklands but the crew played the crew duty card and were well entertained by the BAF. Next morning, ready to depart the plan fell over. The authorities would not allow the Herc to leave without the passenger and UK MoD refused a free trip back to the Falklands. Impass.

The Polish Embassy in London was presented with the bill and initially refused to pay. Think private business jet rather than Ryanair. Eventually they paid and the crew departed.

[ricardian]

1960 "Thunder in waiting", Pathe Look At Life.
Features Vulcan & Thor

[Pontius Navigator]

Ric. Not had time to watch it but the copilot named on the door was Noel Steel, later a captain on 12Sqn and if alive still in the Grantham area. I think he will have recovered from two black eyes walking into a door twice

[PHXPhlyer]

Just past the 4:00 mark one takes off with the boards out.
Anyone know what gives with that?

PP

[boing]

PP
Certainly not procedure on an initial take-off but it may have been a touch and go (roll) where the airbrakes took a while to retract. In that case there was plenty of thrust even if you left the airbrakes out. Nobody really talked about this very much but I would say the air-brakes were designed as drag producers and did not effect the lift very much which is why they were mounted on "posts" rather than hinging directly on the wing surface.

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