Vulcan

[G-CPTN]

Just past the 4:00 mark one takes off with the boards out.

I noticed that, too.

[Pontius Navigator]

Boing, and a crude fuel dump system. We did a RAT Check at TOC;it didn't work as the fuse s had blown on the previous trip. It had dropped out in low level turbulence over Libya at 350kts We then did a circuit of Cyprus at low level with high drag to get to landing weight.

It was quite dramatic when the lights go out the radar is dumped and other services shut down all unexpectedly.

[TheGreenGoblin]

PP
Certainly not procedure on an initial take-off but it may have been a touch and go (roll) where the airbrakes took a while to retract. In that case there was plenty of thrust even if you left the airbrakes out. Nobody really talked about this very much but I would say the air-brakes were designed as drag producers and did not effect the lift very much which is why they were mounted on "posts" rather than hinging directly on the wing surface.

Seems a reasonable assumption. No designer would actively seek to use an air brake as a lift device!

In fact I would imagine that the air brakes' primary role would have been to allow high rates of descent without busting the speed and Mach limitations of the aircraft or to allow rapid deceleration of the aircraft. In the landing configuration one assumes that the air brakes would have been used to give additional drag although the shape of the Vulcan's delta wing would surely have given a good balance between lift and drag anyway! Would those that know here care to opine on my assumptions here?

Did the Vulcan generally use parachute(s) for braking on the runway or did a high alpha attitude in the flair generally scrub off enough speed on the runways generally long enough to accommodate the Vulcan?

[tango15]

With the proviso that I was never a (proper) pilot nor an aerodynamicist, I would say you are about right, GG. I saw the Vulcan land may times at Woodford, but I never saw them use a 'chute. I think the air brakes, together with the high alpha attitude in the flare was enough to bring the beast back to terra firma. What I did notice was that it used a lot of Woodford's 7000' runway, but maybe the guys were being gentle on the brakes - I don't know. I do seem to remember a couple of the pilots saying that it always seemed reluctant to return to earth!

I saw them in full operational mode at Burtonwood many years ago after the USAF had left and before the main runway was turned in to motorway. They had QRA practices there and again, I never saw the 'chutes deployed, though Burtonwood had a long runway, (for it's time), of 9000'.

[TheGreenGoblin]

I saw them in full operational mode at Burtonwood many years ago after the USAF had left and before the main runway was turned in to motorway. They had QRA practices there and again, I never saw the 'chutes deployed, though Burtonwood had a long runway, (for it's time), of 9000'.

Thanks for your interesting empirical observations on the Vulcan tango15!

At the risk of drifting the thread, one of the most memorable aviation images, viewed from a departure lounge, that ghosts through my increasingly addled transom, is that of the early morning Concorde flight landing at JFK one golden autumn morning back in NY in the early 90's, the delta wing flaring up midst two white, vortex induced, clouds, to what seemed an impossible angle of attack as the bird seemed to hang majestically in the air, reluctant to return to terra firma. Truly a beautiful moment never to be forgotten.

[Alisoncc]

During my 2½-3 years as a radio liney on Vulcan B2's at Finningly I vaguely recollect the first entry in the F700 for an aircraft after a however brief sojourn up above was "Tail chute deployed" or words to that effect. Like GG's Concorde above they were a majestic beast when in their all white livery and the large black NBS radome leant them an air of menace.

Alison

[boing]

The airbrakes did reduce Minimum Drag Speed. That does seem backwards but it is based on the balance of Form Drag versus Induced Drag. Although the airbrakes increased Form Drag and therefore Total Drag they reduced the airspeed for the minimum combined drag down by some amount. I don't know by how much, we were never told, but enough to be useful. You had plenty of power to counter the increased drag and the reduced airspeed over the threshold was an advantage.

There was absolutely no trim change with the airbrakes and unlike smaller aircraft spoilers they took some time to deploy. If I remember correctly they had two positions, zero to minimum took a while but min to max was quite rapid.

Chute use was infrequent because the chute had to be recovered from the runway and replaced which was a chore. I imagine it was there for use in an aborted take-off as much as anything else because otherwise it would rarely be needed. Standard braking technique was to apply the brakes until the Maxarats were cycling and then back-off when speed was under control.

GG, you have the difference between speedbrakes and spoilers. Speedbrakes give predominantly drag with little lift reduction but spoilers also intentionally reduce lift as well as providing drag. Speedbrakes deployed on the approach had one other advantage, they required a higher power setting which put the engines into a more responsive RPM range and hence reduced spool-up time if you suddenly needed a handful of Ooomph. The same thing happens on a conventional aircraft with flap selection but, of course, the Vulcan did not have flaps.


.

[TheGreenGoblin]

GG, you have the difference between speedbrakes and spoilers. Speedbrakes give predominantly drag with little lift reduction but spoilers also intentionally reduce lift as well as providing drag. Speedbrakes deployed on the approach had one other advantage, they required a higher power setting which put the engines into a more responsive RPM range and hence reduced spool-up time if you suddenly needed a handful of Ooomph. The same thing happens on a conventional aircraft with flap selection but, of course, the Vulcan did not have flaps.

Appreciate your interesting post.

I was definitely talking about speed brakes above!

The airbrakes did reduce Minimum Drag Speed. That does seem backwards but it is based on the balance of Form Drag versus Induced Drag. Although the airbrakes increased Form Drag and therefore Total Drag they reduced the airspeed for the minimum combined drag down by some amount. I don't know by how much, we were never told, but enough to be useful. You had plenty of power to counter the increased drag and the reduced airspeed over the threshold was an advantage.

From memory VMD is where parasitic drag (form drag and skin friction drag) and induced drag are equal in size, with VMD being the speed for the best ratio of lift over drag, so definitely not speaking about a spoiler here.

You got me fishing out notes here now...

[TheGreenGoblin]

To go full nerd (and post a relevant video, no music, I promise)...



With real complexity here being the shape of the wing...

[Pontius Navigator]

Regarding power settings I was going to make that point too. The B47 used to stream a parachute in the circuit thus requiring higher power settings. As their engines were prodded and outboard there was no danger of shredding the chute.

To expand on the comments about the TBC. As Alison mentioned, there was a requirement for regular streaming as it had to be repacked periodically. For obvious reasons we never wanted that requirement on a land away.

We had a mandatory requirement to use the TBC on short runways less than 6,500 feet. El Adem was one such and not something anyone wanted to do. There was however a get out of jail card. Chute deployment was not advised in crosswinds. Amazing how many times we had cross winds on short runways.

My skipper enjoyed streaming. On landing on 11,500 feet at Goose we steamed and got the call: Hey Limey, your bird just crapped on my runway - as the whole thing just dumped but didn't open. There were 12 KC135 on alert and the Yanks were not amused.

Another time when we streamed there was no slow down and the sheer pin had bent. The stream limiting speed was 145 kts and jettison at 60kts. Cross wind limit was 20kts.

Another time, different crew, we watched as the aircraft landed in a tropical downpour at Gan. Vis was probably less than 2,000 feet, and a short strange runway. He went passed to Tower and disappeared. We thought he might have gone off the end but stopped just in time. It then took over 3 weeks to dry it out. There was no building big enough and it kept raining.

One of the display party pieces was a chute landing. Streaming at about 20-30 feet pilots such as Joe L'Estrange and, I think Gordon Bourn, would stop in about 4, 000ft.

[Pontius Navigator]

The airbrakes had 3 positions, medium drag or high drag.
At Medium drag there were at 35deg. At High drag they would go to 55deg and then 80deg when the undercarriage was lowered.

[TheGreenGoblin]

Good shot of the air brakes... (aka speed/dive)...

[tango15]

I saw them in full operational mode at Burtonwood many years ago after the USAF had left and before the main runway was turned in to motorway. They had QRA practices there and again, I never saw the 'chutes deployed, though Burtonwood had a long runway, (for it's time), of 9000'.

Thanks for your interesting empirical observations on the Vulcan tango15!

At the risk of drifting the thread, one of the most memorable aviation images, viewed from a departure lounge, that ghosts through my increasingly addled transom, is that of the early morning Concorde flight landing at JFK one golden autumn morning back in NY in the early 90's, the delta wing flaring up midst two white, vortex induced, clouds, to what seemed an impossible angle of attack as the bird seemed to hang majestically in the air, reluctant to return to terra firma. Truly a beautiful moment never to be forgotten.

A sight to behold, to be sure! But then she was always at her best (imho) in her landing pose.

[tango15]

Fascinating stuff on the Vulcan - thank you guys!

[Pontius Navigator]

I forgot to mention aerodynamic braking, what we were used to see from the mid60s onward was restricted braking limited by the ECM bulge. Without the ECM the Mk1 could get a much greater nose up.

Too much on the Mk2 and you would scrape the tail. A small sprung device was fitted in 1965. It was about 9 inches long and 45 deg angle. As the nose was raised a blue lamp would illuminate as the arm touched the runway. If the nose was raised further a second blue lamp would illuminate.

On one landing the copilot congratulated himself for keeping just the one light on. "Are you sure the other bulb is serviceable?"

[boing]

After incantations, deliberations and much meditation a thought, a memory, buried deep in my mind slowly began to rise like a tiny bubble created at the floor of the deepest ocean. I moved to the secret door and using my new found knowledge forced it open against its rusty hinges. Once through the door I entered the long dark passageway draped with cobwebs which led to the holy of holys. The door of this sanctum pushed aside easily and I was soon facing a collection of the most holy and venerated scriptures. Somehow my hand knew where to reach and I soon had the third most holy manuscript of this treasury in my hands. Dusty it was and faded but thanks to the many years of darkness the words were almost as clear as when they were first written in it's archaic text. In my hands were several hundred pages of the accumulated wisdom and knowledge of the great thinkers and men who had gone before, men to whom I would never be able to hold a candle or thank sufficiently for their gifts. I studied the cover before I dared open the tome. The proud symbol on the cover boasted of the provenance of the work.

My fingers searched eagerly through the pages as I experienced the eery feeling that I had held this document before and that I knew much of its content. I finally found the words that I was searching for, my premonition had been correct, here was the mystic formula I sought couched in the most simple of terms for those that would understand.

Unfortunately much of the rest of this volume was written in a strange language that only the initiated would comprehend. I offer an example in the hope that some student of the Way finding this tale may be able to interpret its wisdom.

Tamam

[Pontius Navigator]

Being a lowly navigator trained to follow Biggles, except in a Sea Vixen or a PR9 wherever you are first at the crash scene, our mystical mathematics was more concerned with trigonometry, ballistics and probabilities.

[boing]

PN

Rule #1, Gravity rules.

.

[ian16th]

Being a lowly navigator trained to follow Biggles, except in a Sea Vixen or a PR9 wherever you are first at the crash scene, our mystical mathematics was more concerned with trigonometry, ballistics and probabilities.

PN were you ever a Nav on PR9's?

It was a cruel seat position. Simply sitting in it on the ground was bad enough. To spend hours in flight should have been classed as torture.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ian, no. As young and innocent I flew behind Niggles in his bang seat. Thereafter I sat well behind though that didn't help the Shack rearcrew when the sqn cdr tried to penetrate cumulo granite.