Vulcan

[Pontius Navigator]

Brick, as you will see, the Vulcan is still an active topic. I am currently helping someone with his PhD thesis, which reminds me, I was supposed to get a proof of his book end of January. Hope he is still fit. His work mixes personal recollection with archive documents on survival probability etc. It seems our 4 minute warning was optimistic and a 15 minute readiness was as flat as a pancake.

Also had some bits in the Haynes Workshop series.

I have also been helping someone whose topic is the WE177 bomb.

[TheGreenGoblin]

Brick, as you will see, the Vulcan is still an active topic. I am currently helping someone with his PhD thesis, which reminds me, I was supposed to get a proof of his book end of January. Hope he is still fit. His work mixes personal recollection with archive documents on survival probability etc. It seems our 4 minute warning was optimistic and a 15 minute readiness was as flat as a pancake.

Also had some bits in the Haynes Workshop series.

I have also been helping someone whose topic is the WE177 bomb.

I am reading 'Skybolt. At Arms Length' by Nicholas Hill and he noted therein that...

The warhead that was to be used in WE177 was effectively the primary of the Skybolt warhead—in other words, the fission trigger. To produce a version with a much larger yield was very simple—put the fusion stage back in. This merely meant putting an extra section into the centre of the bomb. The new variety was referred to as WE177B. The kiloton version was now WE177A.

The era is fascinating to me and the key role of the Vulcan in the proposed delivery of the Skybolt most interesting from a technical point of view and even more so in the interregnum after the Americans cancelled the Skybolt programme, and left the UK floundering, pending the delivery of Polaris after the Nassau conference.

It seems to me that the UK was batting on a very sticky wicket in the 60's relying on Vulcan delivered nuclear armaments as part of a second strike policy given the capability of Soviet defense systems as the decade progressed, pending the operational readiness of Polaris in 1968.

No doubt I will be shot down for heresy, like the proverbial Vulcan over the Soviet Union, by the various cognoscenti here!

[Boac]

My skipper was the sqn QFI/IRE but not in Don's class. One night the colour he was checking hit a marker board - 3 feet high and 10 feet inboard of the wing.

PN - not being used to V-force terminolgy - what sort of check is that?

I assume/hope that was with the gear?

[Pontius Navigator]

BOAC, I meant copilot of course. Yes the wheels were down. We only heard about it the next morning. We weren't flying with him that time. It was definitely left wing low.

[Pontius Navigator]

TGG, not at all

It seems to me that the UK was batting on a very sticky wicket in the 60's relying on Vulcan delivered nuclear armaments as part of a second strike policy given the capability of Soviet defense systems as the decade progressed, pending the operational readiness of Polaris in 1968.

The researcher I am helping has found ResBat documents (Bomber Command Research Branch) that postulate that about 50% of the force would not escape the blast from inbound missiles. Warning time would depend on whether the Soviets aimed for simultaneous impact or simultaneous launch. In the latter case we might lose half the force. We were never made privy to that paper.

Also day or night would make a difference. The SAMs were an inconvenience but not that danderous. The fighters were also not that effective until the advent of the Firebar.

Some would have got through.o

[TheGreenGoblin]

TGG, not at all

It seems to me that the UK was batting on a very sticky wicket in the 60's relying on Vulcan delivered nuclear armaments as part of a second strike policy given the capability of Soviet defense systems as the decade progressed, pending the operational readiness of Polaris in 1968.

The researcher I am helping has found ResBat documents (Bomber Command Research Branch) that postulate that about 50% of the force would not escape the blast from inbound missiles. Warning time would depend on whether the Soviets aimed for simultaneous impact or simultaneous launch. In the latter case we might lose half the force. We were never made privy to that paper.

Also day or night would make a difference. The SAMs were an inconvenience but not that danderous. The fighters were also not that effective until the advent of the Firebar.

Some would have got through.o

The mathematics of madness.... even if correct...

[Boac]

about 50% of the force would not escape the blast from inbound missiles.

that assumes they were still there with a surprise attack and not deployed. Odds would be significantly better with an hour's notice of hostilities.

Not much worth coming back to though, if you could.

TGG - all part of 'MAD'.

[Pontius Navigator]

BOAC, quite. During Cuban crisis MacMillan would not give the order to disperse as it would be provocative. At least in 1963 the missile threat would have been lower. At least 30 of so on ORPs would have got off and then some, wife enough to threaten Moscow.

[Pontius Navigator]

BOAC, talking of the bomber bases being hit, I often wondered whether we got it wrong on exercises. The Air defence exercises in the 80s were all predicated on ASM and ARM attacks on the Air Defence units. Suppression of Air Defence is always necessary to gain air superiority, like in the Gulf, but where your objective is to destroy the means to retaliate why waste your first shot on the defence?

[Pontius Navigator]

Incidentally, I learnt from my friend doing his PhD that in 1963 we would have used 3 Gates, one in North over Finland, one south east of Hamburg and the southern one on the Austrian border.

I know from early maps left in the vault that some routes were over northern France then Switzerland before going to the South gate.

In contrast we always assumed the main Soviet bomber threat would be over Denmark thus avoiding the main battle in the centre.

[Boac]

wife enough to threaten Moscow.

???? Mind you, I have one of those...............

The Air defence exercises in the 80s were all predicated on ASM and ARM attacks on the Air Defence units

I suspect that by "the 80's" the Russians had correctly assessed the V-Bomber force to be of very limited effectiveness.

[Pontius Navigator]

BOAC, true by 84, so why bother to attack UK Air Defence at all?

Just go straight for East Anglia, Dover, Southampton and Faslane and airfields like Kinloss, Lossiemouth, St Mawgan and Machrihanish also.

[Boac]

why bother to attack UK Air Defence at all?

Just go straight for East Anglia, Dover, Southampton and Faslane and airfields like Kinloss, Lossiemouth, St Mawgan and Machrihanish

Well, it may be an out-dated concept, but I thought Air Defence was supposed to prevent that?

[Pontius Navigator]

BOAC, true, but my point was one of priorities. Rather than fight the Air Defenders and then attack the targets, just go for the juggular. All the exercises were set up to attack the Air Defence system.

Imagine had the exercises used the targets I listed that would have stretched the AD a bit. The South coast targets particularly would have been interesting.

[Boac]

Rather than fight the Air Defenders and then attack the targets, just go for the juggular.

Not quite sure how that would work? The idea of AD is to STOP the 'going for the juggular' (sic).

By the time any baddies got as far as "the south coast" they would (hopefully) have run through a few AD systems on the way.

[Pontius Navigator]

Defending indeed but my point it the exercise targets were the AD systems themselves.

[Boac]

Well, put it this way - if you were trying to get into a house, and the house owner was threatening to smack you over the head if you came in, would you start throwing stones at his cat or attack him?

[Pontius Navigator]

No. As I don't have any means to clobber him I would just go in mob handed and accept that one is us might get smacked.

My aim would be to kill my target and evade the fighter.

If it was a campaign such as the GW that is different. Any way you woukd have been shot out in a day or two

[Undried Plum]

MAD is the best acronym I've ever seen in the English language.

[Alisoncc]

On the ground, running around the ORP and QRA pans we believed it, and that was all that matter. We firmly believed that we wouldn't be seeing our aircrews again. This was the early sixties. In the air force occifers were canon fodder, so ..... easy come easy go.

Alison