The story of old 666..

[TheGreenGoblin]

Old 666



Mapping the hard way...

Extraordinary times, extraordinary men...

[TheGreenGoblin]

It is amazing how stories get mangled even by the History Channel as evidenced in that video posted above. Firstly the programme implied that Jay Zeamer Jr was some kind of maverick and that his crew was a group of misfits, cuing thoughts of Kelly's Heroes Oddball and his men! Nothing could have been further from the truth, particularly when it came to Zeamer himself.

In fact Zeamer was a straight arrow right down to having been an Eagle Scout in his youth. His background wouldn't have looked out of whack on an astronaut's resume in the decade after the war. The only blemish on his impeccable credentials was having been judged a little ham-fisted when flying the B-26 Marauder. He went on to become an aeronautical engineer after the war.

Jay Zeamer Junior

The other erroneous fact in the History Channel's dramatization was that while the crew of the B-17 believed they had shot down several Zero's, the Japanese records implied that only one aircraft had gone down. None of which detracts from the extraordinary bravery of the B-17 crew.

[ian16th]

The other erroneous fact in the History Channel's dramatization was that while the crew of the B-17 believed they had shot down several Zero's, the Japanese records implied that only one aircraft had gone down. None of which detracts from the extraordinary bravery of the B-17 crew.

Didn't the air gunners of the 8th Air Force claim more 'kills' than the Luftwaffe had a/c?

[TheGreenGoblin]

Didn't the air gunners of the 8th Air Force claim more 'kills' than the Luftwaffe had a/c?

Interesting subject ian16th.

Confirmation and Overclaiming of aerial victories during World War II

[llondel]

I know the RAF did their best to validate and confirm the kills, presumably because the top brass wanted to get a good idea of how well they were doing. Slightly different circumstances with a large bomber formation though, where multiple gunners would be shooting at a given aircraft and might all claim it if someone did take it down.

[TheGreenGoblin]

I know the RAF did their best to validate and confirm the kills, presumably because the top brass wanted to get a good idea of how well they were doing. Slightly different circumstances with a large bomber formation though, where multiple gunners would be shooting at a given aircraft and might all claim it if someone did take it down.

Yes llondell, it must have been very difficult to ascertain whether one or all of the gunners on a B-17, or B-17's (for example) had managed to actually make a kill, particularly given the fact that attacks were of such such short duration and the bomber(s), perforce, did not follow the enemy fighter during the short engagement as was often the case in the typical fighter on fighter dogfight

Talking of the RAF top brass, I do remember reading that the irascible and pugilistic Douglas Bader took to reporting enemy aircraft "frightened" during the Battle of Britain. Presumably he was referring to the fuel injected ME 109's that took to pulling a negative G maneuver which allowed them to escape the following Spitfires whose engines would stutter due to their carburetor based fuel systems at that time. The top brass also took a dim view of Bader's "scared the enemy" reports.

[Slasher]

I think the History Channel has been off for several years. Not me nor anyone I know refers to it, preferring to offer well researched documentaries as historical evidence instead. Usually online.

IIRC Dowding imposed strict kill rules to prevent the RAF looking better than it was actually doing - a sure way to lose any battle.

For example The Longest Day - (18 August 1940?) - 165 Luftwaffe aircraft where claimed to have been shot down, whereas the real figure was closer to 85. Such is the Fog of War, but at least it was enough to be a significant Nazi defeat. Bad wx and nav screwups by the Krouts helped a lot too.

[TheGreenGoblin]

I think the History Channel has been off for several years. Not me nor anyone I know refers to it, preferring to offer well researched documentaries as historical evidence instead. Usually online.

Sadly you are right. Time was when it wasn't too bad. The National Geographic channel is going the same way. Bubble gum for the alien or conspiracy theory loving mind in both cases these days, better described as garbage!

[llondel]

What bugs me about these 'documentaries' is the fact that an hour's programme has at most 30 minutes of useful stuff in them, especially when viewed in the US with ad breaks and the way they have to recap everything that's happened so far after each ad break.

[ian16th]

What bugs me about these 'documentaries' is the fact that an hour's programme has at most 30 minutes of useful stuff in them, especially when viewed in the US with ad breaks and the way they have to recap everything that's happened so far after each ad break.

+1

[unifoxos]

Isn't that what the Fast Forward button is for?

[llondel]

To merge with the thread on drinking water and bathroom use, that's what I use ad breaks for, that and making more tea.

[ian16th]

Going back to guns on WWII a/c, why did the allies use .303/.30 calibre guns for so long?
Fitting 8 x .303 m/c guns on the Spitfire & Hurricane, when the ME109 had a 20mm cannon.

[om15]

Didn't the air gunners of the 8th Air Force claim more 'kills' than the Luftwaffe had a/c?

I have just read "Firestorm Hamburg" by Martin Middlebrook, the mighty 8th carried out the daylight raids on Hamburg, this was deep penetration bombing and they had pretty heavy losses. The powers knew that the claims were wildly inflated, but apparently encouraged this to aid morale to in order to perpetuate the myth that day time formations were self protecting.
I am re reading Antony Beevor, he makes the point that the daylight bombing of German forces in Normandy after D Day by the USAF was in some cases less than accurate and in the confusion of the changing situations on the ground Allied ground forces were bombed heavily on several occasions by the USAF.

The ground attack Typhoons were in constant action after D Day, they specialised in attacking enemy tanks and road convoys, after the war their claims were found to be massively inflated, this was questioned by the brass and second enquiries were carried out, although they did cause huge damage it wasn't what they thought/claimed, interestingly the German high command put down their losses and retreat to the RAF/USAF air attacks because they didn't want it to be known that their SS Panzer divisions were being driven back by the ground forces.

During the periods of bad weather, particularly in the autumn, the allied air forces were not in the battle and this gave the German forces time to resupply and regroup, it seems that the massive bombing by the RAF and the 8th did huge damage to the German war effort, the Russians were amazed at the results when they entered the eastern areas of Germany.