Citations for gallantry medals

Message
Author
User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Citations for gallantry medals

#1 Post by Ex-Ascot » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:13 pm

We are trying to find a citation for the grandfather of a friend who apparently (not certain) was awarded a M.C. in WWI. His parents were British but he was born in Tangayika in about 1871. When war broke out all Brits were put under house arrest by the Germans. He walked all the way to S.A. and joined up in the S.A army. He fought in France we think it was in Ypres that he was awarded his MC. His name was Johan Daniel Hamman.

Anyone any idea where we can search for this information? I have come up with a few web sites but no result. It may of course not be true that he was awarded a M.C. His medals have gone missing over the years.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#2 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:12 pm

So that I'm not chasing the wrong fella, did he die in the Transvaal in 1969?

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#3 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:15 pm

Was he a POW of the British, held in Bermuda in 1902?

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#4 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:10 pm

I've found that an Honorary Lieutenant of that name, shown as in The East African Intelligence department, is listed as being awarded the MC serial number 30482 between the 18th of January 1918 and 25th April 1918.

Correction: his award was earlier, but was Gazetted in the New Year's list of honours in Jan '18.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#5 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:21 pm

Here's a link to The Gazette.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#6 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:44 pm

He's also in Wikiwotsit.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#7 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:55 pm

For £3.50 you can buy a copy of his medal card from Kew.

I suspect that he may have been a Lt Colonel in Eastern Province Command in 1938 according to page 158 of this weighty tome.

WARNING!: this kind of research can be quite addictive!

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#8 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:28 pm

I suspect the citation will not be anything like we have today. My grandfather 's was published in The Times and just noted in the Gazette.

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#9 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:26 am

UP many thanks. I have to go out but will follow up your leads this afternoon.

Noted PN. I can imagine. They wouldn't have had time to write them all. He was brave/very brave/extremely brave. Please tick the box.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#10 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:54 am

I am in the process of reinstalling programs on my computer. Once done I will try and remember to print The Times citation. What was interesting was the page was filled with columns of those awarded the MC. His citation was very bland, 'under enemy fire ' and his personal note was also modest in the extreme.

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#11 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:08 am

UP we are sure you are onto the right guy. He did die in the Transvaal but his grand daughter thought 1962. She is checking with her sisters. The date of the award is consistent with him being in the Battle of Passchendaele. Our friend is a great lady whom Cape has met. She is very grateful for your research and sends many thanks. British descent of course but brought up on a large farm in Kenya. Spent 16 years in Norfolk (not The Norfolk Hotel) so her children could have a British education. Her son owns the safari camp we go to the other side of town after our Thursday shopping. She has another son who is a brewery manager in Yorkshire. A good family to know. :YMPARTY:

That would be great PN. Thank you.

The problem she has that she never knew about her grandfather's WWI activities. Like many he wouldn't talk about them. An aunt dropped it into conversation once and she has been intrigued about it ever since.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#12 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:28 am

From The Times, 16 Oct 1916, The King had been pleased to confer the Military Cross on the following officers and warrant officers in recognition of their gallantry and devotion to duty in the field . . . Sub Condr John Dunne, Supply and Transport Corps, For conspicuous gallantry and good work during operations. He worked night and day rationing and supplying troops during the advance. On one occasion he worked alone under hostile shell fire and displayed great coolness and courage under very trying conditions.

What he said however was: I got the MC in Mespot when taking up supplies to the front line. My escort did a bunk when the Turks started shelling our boat, so I carried on and got the stuff up. If I had not the troops would have starved..

When his escort ran off he told the Arab boatman to carry on or he would shoot him if he surrendered to the Turks. He had nothing to lose so he carried on.

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#13 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:33 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:12 pm
So that I'm not chasing the wrong fella, did he die in the Transvaal in 1969?
Yes her sisters now confirm this. She was wrong. You have the right officer absolutely no doubt. Now where did you get the info on him becoming a Lt Col?

PN look forward to the mention in the Times.

Edit, just had an SMS from the lady. She is overcome with this info.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#14 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:47 pm

Ex-Ascot, that is it above. From The Times citation it looks pretty much what many underwent and unrecognised. Coolness and trying conditions could be anything. His own account also didn't mention it was up the Euphrates at night through Turkish lines.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17209
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#15 Post by Boac » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:56 pm

PN - ex-A is looking for Johan Daniel Hamman, not John Dunne. :-\

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#16 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:02 pm

Crossed wires ExA, I was just illustrating how brief and possibly anodyne such citations might be.

Slasher

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#17 Post by Slasher » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:30 am

Many thanks to Plum and Ponsh for helping out Ex-A like this. I know for a fact he’s deeply grateful for your efforts.

Good to see you’re still around Plum! 👍🏻

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#18 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:42 am

Slasher wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:30 am
Many thanks to Plum and Ponsh for helping out Ex-A like this. I know for a fact he’s deeply grateful for your efforts.

Good to see you’re still around Plum! 👍🏻
+1 The lady is over the moon. She hasn't got access to Internet at home but will pull the info from Kew tomorrow. I tried yesterday but the site would not accept my VISA. May try again this afternoon.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Slasher

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#19 Post by Slasher » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:52 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:42 am
She hasn't got access to Internet at home but will pull the info from Kew tomorrow. I tried yesterday but the site would not accept my VISA. May try again this afternoon.
If you have any probs Sah pulling that cert from Kew, it will accept my MasterCard. I can download then forward it to you by email. We can worry about repayment later. It’s only 3 1/2 quid anyway so that’s about what...2 risottos worth after crew discount?

Let me know what you think.

PS: just to confirm we’re on the same page so to speak:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... r/D2758068

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13096
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: Citations for gallantry medals

#20 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:24 am

Further to my e-mail very kind offer Capt. I have tried 5 more times with my card and once with the TS card. No go. Perhaps you would be kind enough to give it a go. Yes indeed right page. I think that there is summat wrong. Wonder if you are allowed to courier grub to Honkers? Could give it a go.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Post Reply