Nimrod Stuff

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TheGreenGoblin
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Nimrod Stuff

#1 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:12 pm

I have been reading about the travails and development cancellations associated with models AEW3 and MRA4 and have a heap of questions that I am trying to answer about the operation of the various marques and operational roles played by this fascinating aircraft.

One question that I have is, given that the the crews were specialists, pilots, navigators of various types, radio/communications wallahs, radar operators, sonobuoy fundi's, weapons specialists, and various other black arts and electronics types, I was wondering who would be in overall command of the flight and strategy for each flight? Was it always the pilot or could one of the other crew or even the occasional boffin on board have been put in charge of the show?

I am sure we must have somebody here who knows and can tell, will tell.? :)
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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#2 Post by Boac » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:43 pm

It has always been a 'bone of contention' - not unusual to have a junior pilot flying in a 2-seater with a senior navigator - junior is in charge. Two Captains flying together in an airliner - designated aircraft commander rules, regardless of 'seniority'.

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#3 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:33 pm

Boac wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:43 pm
It has always been a 'bone of contention' - not unusual to have a junior pilot flying in a 2-seater with a senior navigator - junior is in charge. Two Captains flying together in an airliner - designated aircraft commander rules, regardless of 'seniority'.
Appreciate your answer but just to confirm that I have really understood, what you are saying is that it was the pilot "uber alles" and not some senior, but more perfidious, navigation officer, who commanded? I expect we will hear from Pontius Navigator by and by! :))
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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#4 Post by Boac » Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:40 pm

Cannot speak for the steak and chips squadrons, tgg, my reference was to 'Fast Jets', but I understood they may have passed tactical command 'on station' to a specialist. As you say, PN should explain. As I have posted elsewhere on this topic, I suspect the overall 'Captain' (ie head driver) would always have the right to over-rule a dangerous request from Tac i/c.

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#5 Post by Boac » Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:59 pm


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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#6 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:53 pm

Boac wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:59 pm
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=5188&p=217181#p217181 for you, tgg
The Tactical Director on the other hand is virtually divorced from aircraft operation.
Thanks for the link Boac... curious and curiouser...
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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#7 Post by Boac » Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:58 pm

If you think about it, it is totally logical - you could not expect a pilot to be au fait with ASW ops and all the equipment involved, any more than you would expect the MD of a financial company to be downstairs programming the computer? Also, if he was, who would be thinking about remaining time on station, nearest alternates, the slowly increasing oil temperature on No2 etc? When you have trained experts it is best to leave it to them, and in the Maritime case they would need to control the aircraft - height, speed, position etc.

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#8 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:02 pm

The MRA4 and AEW operated entirely different rules.

AEW was more conventional. Captain was always the senior pilot by experience and appointment. The crew captain would trump a check captain who had more experience. Similarly one navigator would be appointed 1st navigator, certainly on the E3 he would be in the flight deck. On the AEW Sidevalve will know the answer. Down the back the mission crew would be led by by the Tactical Director. By specialisation he might be a navigator or air electronics officer though these were amalgamated into the Weapons Systems branch. The Captain was responsible for aircraft safety of flight and complying with, within safety constraints, the directions of the Tactical Director.

On the MRA4 it would have followed traditional maritime practice. The officer crew would comprise a 1st pilot, 2nd pilot, 1st navigator, 2nd navigator and an AEW. Both pilots were qualified left or right seat and similarly either nav could act as tactical or route navigator. Of the 1st pilot, 1st nav or AEO, the most experienced would be appointed captain. From memory, on 201, we had 7 pilot, 2 nav and an AEO.

A n appointed captain could 'guest' with another crew as captain of their own captain was not flying or simply in his specialisation if he was not replacing the crew captain.

The appointed captain, regardless of rank, is the one in command and carries the can, even if a problem was caused by Betty's eldest son.

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#9 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:19 pm

BOAC, not quite true of ASW. Though it pains me to say it, most MR pilot captains were very good tacticians. On the Mk 1, with no more than standard flight deck displays, they could keep there own situational plot of a sonobuoy field, their position in the field, and were the ones that called the crew to action stations.

A typical prosecution of a submarine might be:

A call from a visual lookout, a radar detection, a sonobuoy contact, and on one occasion, a Mad.

The Captain would call the crew to action stations.
On the call the Tactical navigator would declare the tactic to be employed.
For a deliberate attack the aim would be to localize and prosecute the target.
For an urgent attack it would be straight in, essentially to keep the submarine down and foil any attack on friendly forces.
The Captain's decision was final.

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#10 Post by Boac » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:53 pm

most MR pilot captains were very good tacticians
- aw shucks... :O3

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#11 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:28 pm

And there I have it, a full answer. Thank you gentlemen both.
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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#12 Post by larsssnowpharter » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:41 pm

Just as a bit of thread drift which Ops-Normers may (or may not) find interesting: during the Malaya Emergency it was quite usual for the Strike Commander to be a Sgt Pilot who would often have Wing Commanders, or above, under his operational command during a strike mission.

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#13 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:43 pm

Boac wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:58 pm
If you think about it, it is totally logical - you could not expect a pilot to be au fait with ASW ops and all the equipment involved, any more than you would expect the MD of a financial company to be downstairs programming the computer? Also, if he was, who would be thinking about remaining time on station, nearest alternates, the slowly increasing oil temperature on No2 etc? When you have trained experts it is best to leave it to them, and in the Maritime case they would need to control the aircraft - height, speed, position etc.
I also tend to think about this based upon a good piece of advice given to me when I was young and very snotty by an older hand after I had questioned the ability of the boss because he was unable to do one of the things I could do... "there can only be one overall gaffer".

A conductor is a good metaphor for this kind of thing. He/she may or may not be be able to play all of the instruments in the orchestra but the whole orchestra falls to pieces without the conductor's direction. The buck has got to stop somewhere and I guess, with that, comes the loneliness of command... :)

As long as somebody is designated leader then the hierarchy is set and understood.
larsssnowpharter wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:41 pm
Just as a bit of thread drift which Ops-Normers may (or may not) find interesting: during the Malaya Emergency it was quite usual for the Strike Commander to be a Sgt Pilot who would often have Wing Commanders, or above, under his operational command during a strike mission.
And while I was writing that larrssnowpharter made the point perfectly... one leader for the mission even if some are more senior in their own specialties...
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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#14 Post by G~Man » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:06 pm

Along with Pontious Navigator, I was also on 201 Squadron, (Hic et ubique). Although I only did one tour there and then ended up on the Nimrod Flight Trials Unit, part of 18 Group GSU. I flew on the Nimrod AEW one time before it was scrapped.

On 201 crew 1, our Captain was the pilot, however when I was on NFTU, our Captain was the AEO. Nimrod crews tended to be a little more "lax" than normal, especially on NFTC. There was no rank on board the aircraft, everyone was referred to either by the position or first name.
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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#15 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:08 pm

It seems extraordinary that this aircraft was canned, with fuselages, and even some jigs and machine tools being destroyed...



BAE Systems Nimrod MRA4
In the 2010 Strategic Defence and Security Review of the Armed Forces, the UK government announced the cancellation of the MRA4 on 19 October 2010 and consequently that RAF Kinloss, the intended base for the Nimrod fleet, would be closed. On 24 November 2010, 382 sub-contract workers previously working on the MRA4 were laid off at BAE Systems Warton and Woodford. After the airframes were stripped of electronic equipment, the remaining fuselages were scrapped at BAE Systems Woodford beginning on 26 January 2011. Although the process was conducted behind screens intended to hide the process from the media, the BBC flew a helicopter over Woodford and broadcast footage of the scrapping in progress.

Although late and over-budget the decision to cancel the MRA4 was controversial as the remaining airframes had all been near completion. It has been reported that following the retirement of the Nimrod MR2 (in March 2010, Russian submarines have been able to travel past the UK in international waters, but they could not be tracked because of the lack of suitable aircraft. In November and early December 2014 four maritime patrol aircraft operated by France, Canada and the United States were based at RAF Lossiemouth to attempt to locate a Russian submarine which had been spotted in British territorial waters off west Scotland.

Following the cancellation, the Defence Secretary Liam Fox used the Nimrod MRA4 procurement as an example of the worst of MOD procurement performance: "The idea that we ever allow ourselves into a position where something that was originally Nimrod 2000 – where we ordered was reduced to nine, spent £3.8bn and we still weren't close to getting the capability – is not to happen again." Nevertheless, six ex-defence chiefs publicly criticised the decision to scrap the Nimrods in January 2011 and the Public Accounts Committee concluded in February 2012 that the decision had been made without a proper understanding of the cost implications and had wasted £3.4bn.

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#16 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:52 pm

Nimrod in happier days...



The video serendipitously answers my original question about command...

The Captain on one flight in the video started out a graduate in Oriental and African studies. A diverse crew indeed.

"A never ending task..."... the sad irony...
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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#17 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:42 pm

Have been reading about some of the SAR sorties flown by the Nimrod and crews in Tony Blackman's 'Nimrod - Rise and Fall'.

The description of the Piper Alpha Rescue co-ordination mission written by Nimrod Radio Operator Joe Kennedy is really disturbing and made all the more poignant in that there was nothing the Nimrod crew could directly do to help save the crew of the stricken rig.
The groundcrew chief plugged his headset in and quietly asked if we knew what the SAR shout was for; someone said it was a fire on a North Sea oil rig...

... I had no idea where Piper Alpha was in the vastness of the North Sea and where it fitted in with all the other oil fields and therefore broke into the busy intercom to request an electronic pointer from the tac nav so that I could concentrate my surface search in the required area. What nobody expected next was the P1 (Major Gary Barth, Canadian exchange officer) calmly advising the crew that he could see a large orange glow on track beyond the horizon. Our Nimrod was still over 80nm from the platform, and simultaneously the realisation struck everyone that this had developed well beyond a small deck fire. The atmosphere in Rescue 01 suddenly chilled as the implications of the new information became clear. This was going to be a very major incident.
What an appalling accident... Kennedy's stark description of the radio calls and the horror and initial confusion in conjunction with the bravery of the rescuers in helicopters and boats below is certainly one of the most affecting descriptions of this accident I have read.

On the other hand the most improbable mission was the one flown 1000 miles off the coast of Chile by a crew who were displaying at a Chilean airshow, to drop supplies to a British all female crew, in a yacht that had been dis-masted, commanded by Tracy Edwards.

“We had a pleasant surprise when we landed and walked into the air show operations as the Chilean air force Wg Cdr in charge had been a student at RAF Staff College Bracknell when I had been on the directing staff. He spoke excellent English and was to prove to be a great help in overcoming difficulties. We made contact with the UK and discovered that Tracy and the yacht were no longer in danger, had carried out repairs and were making about 3 knots under a small jury rigged mast. There was thus no necessity for an urgent rescue operation but they would need to receive charts and some other bits if they were to make it safely to Chile."

The crew flew out and dropped maps, tools and whisky to the crew who made it safely to Chile...

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I thoroughly recommend Tony Blackman's book...
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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#18 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:16 pm

We did a few SAROPs. One was a search for a man overboard on the Irish Sea. In the event the missing man, a teenager had deliberately avoided sailing.

Our search area was quite small, it was a sunny day, and the sea was calm. First thing, the ferry was the Belfast Queen en route Dublin and our ordered search was towards Belfast. When we confirmed the facts were correct we then had to modify the search policy. This had been written in days of open ocean search where our pattern would be based on relative positions through our the search and replotted post flight to find out where we had really searched. In closed waters we had accurate tracks.

The next thing was what were we looking for as there were literally hundreds of things in the sea. We were told the youth had been wearing a white shirt and black trousers. Wonderful. We were able to concentrate on the dozens of white plastic shopping bags.

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#19 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:22 pm

On another occasion we had a scramble to look for a fishing vessel in distress off Flamborough Head. Again we used a geographic reference point. This time it was dog ***** weather, 50-60 knts and about a mile viz. SOP was to fire a green flare every 20 miles, that would be about 6 minutes, and then watch for a red flare in response. Soon obviously that was bollocks. We then tried every couple of minutes - at that rate we had 7 hours worth - but soon realised we lost all night vision . At which point we were diverted to a second incident off Great Yarmouth.

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Re: Nimrod Stuff

#20 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:12 pm

D-y're remember a callsign on 122.45 in the mid-1970s talking to Watchdog from Bredford Traffic? aka Piper Traffic.

If so, there's a 50:50 probability 'twas moi.

The guy with the Geordie accent wuz the other one. He and I worked two weeks on/off back to back. I wuz the one with the BBC Radio English accent.

I 'controlled' the middle bit of the North Sea, the bit North of Forties and South of Brent.

We often talked about Bear Deltas etc who used to mosey around the North Sea at 500' and other such irritating altitudes.

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