The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

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The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#1 Post by ricardian » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:35 pm

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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#2 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:19 pm

A fascinating video.

British bombs and heavy bombing techniques were advanced and the USA also coped a number of features of these bombs and their release mechanisms...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(bomb)
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#3 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:31 pm

Interestingly the Tsar Bomba, was also too large for its designated delivery aircraft, the Tu-95V, although not too heavy to be carried, the aircraft had to carry a minimal fuel load when lofting the bomb which would have resulted in a far too short a range for the weapon to be delivered in any credible war time scenario...
The Tu-95V had all connectors in its automatic release mechanism replaced, the bomb bay doors removed and the aircraft itself covered with a special reflective white paint. Khrushchev himself announced the upcoming tests of the Tsar Bomba in his report at the 22nd Congress of the CPSU on 17 October 1961...

The bomb, weighing 27 metric tons, was so large (8 metres [26 ft] long by 2.1 metres [6 ft 11 in] in diameter) that the Tu-95V had to have its bomb bay doors and fuselage fuel tanks removed. The bomb was attached to an 800-kilogram (1,800 lb), 1,600-square-metre (17,000 sq ft) parachute, which gave the release and observer planes time to fly about 45 kilometres (28 mi) away from ground zero, giving them a 50 percent chance of survival.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#4 Post by llondel » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:07 pm

The in-flight refuelling was interesting too, must have been an early example of a serious attempt at it.

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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#5 Post by G-CPTN » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:54 pm

llondel wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:07 pm
The in-flight refuelling was interesting too, must have been an early example of a serious attempt at it.
I'd like to see how that was done - capturing the hose end and connecting it.

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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#6 Post by ian16th » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:47 pm

The Cobham 'looped hose' system was a pre WWII concept that was ironically put on hold because of WWII.

After Pearl Harbour, the USAAF looked at it!
B24 - B17.jpg
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As a means of bombing Japan with B-17s before the Dolittle Raid from carriers was decided on.

The FRL logo
Clipboard01.jpg
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came from this configuration.

In the book 'In Cobham's Company' I can find no reference to the RAF using the looped hose system in the run up to Nagasaki/Hiroshima.

Of course it could have been the subject of a D Notice or whatever.
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#7 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:40 pm

I have that Cobham book thanks to one of the chaps that posts here. It is a must for any pilot's, aviation enthusiast's, geek's, nerd's library.
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#8 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:43 pm

Given the fact that the Lancasters, black (and therefore heat/flash absorbing) would have fallen in the outer perimeter of the damaging blast radius, it is probably best for all concerned that they were not called upon to go into action. Nothing worse than blowing yourself out of the sky I guess.
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#9 Post by G-CPTN » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:00 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:43 pm
Given the fact that the Lancasters, black (and therefore heat/flash absorbing) would have fallen in the outer perimeter of the damaging blast radius, it is probably best for all concerned that they were not called upon to go into action. Nothing worse than blowing yourself out of the sky I guess.
It obviously took some time for the RAF to work out that white was a better choice for aircraft dropping nuclear bombs.

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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#10 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:15 pm

G-CPTN wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:00 pm
TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:43 pm
Given the fact that the Lancasters, black (and therefore heat/flash absorbing) would have fallen in the outer perimeter of the damaging blast radius, it is probably best for all concerned that they were not called upon to go into action. Nothing worse than blowing yourself out of the sky I guess.
It obviously took some time for the RAF to work out that white was a better choice for aircraft dropping nuclear bombs.
It is somewhat surprising that the RAF and their boffins didn't see this issue clearly as many of the early key physicists in this field were British. Lord Kelvin take a bow...

The work of Lambert, Planck, et al, was also well know in Britain...

Black body radiators matter don't you know!

In the case of the Tsar Bomba it is just as well the CIA flight monitoring that mega blast was painted white...
The Stratotanker and C-135 Stratolifter, each made by the Boeing Company since 1957, were originally designed to facilitate mid-air refueling and to transport troops and equipment. Modified KC-135s and C-135s have flown as command posts, electronic reconnaissance, photo mapping, and purely transport aircraft. A KC-135A received modifications in 1961 to quickly collect on an announced Soviet Union detonation test of an alleged 100 megaton thermonuclear device called the “Tsar Bomba” under the Big Safari program. Despite suffering scorching on the fuselage, the converted aircraft succeeded in its mission by bringing back photographs of the test as well as electromagnetic data to confirm the United State’s suspicions on the bomb’s actual size and how it worked. This proved that the KC-135 had a valuable mission in supporting national level intelligence agencies with viable airborne collected data.
https://owlcation.com/humanities/RC-135 ... -the-Skies
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#11 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:33 pm

No point in having a white bomber resistant to flash and heat of it got shot down before release. Rene he made the point that the B29 was 5,000 feet higher (longer time of bomb fall) and 100 kts faster.

I am not sure if the 200 kts speed though. I have done 250 kts at low level so I think the Lanc woukd have been a bit faster.

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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#12 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:41 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:33 pm
No point in having a white bomber resistant to flash and heat of it got shot down before release. Rene he made the point that the B29 was 5,000 feet higher (longer time of bomb fall) and 100 kts faster.

I am not sure if the 200 kts speed though. I have done 250 kts at low level so I think the Lanc woukd have been a bit faster.
The need for black was completely irrelevant by the time the bomb was dropped. The Japanese had completely lost control of their airspace... save for non radar directed anti-aircraft batteries that had no real hope of hitting a bomber, even a Lancaster operating at +- 25,000 feet....
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#13 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:49 pm

TGG whilst that was true it was not true during the work up phase. I would suggest that Bomber Command would have been very conservative in changing a well used night scheme.

The B29 was not white but silver. Stripping the paint from the Lancaster woukd have been cheaper and lighter.

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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#14 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:56 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:49 pm
TGG whilst that was true it was not true during the work up phase. I would suggest that Bomber Command would have been very conservative in changing a well used night scheme.

The B29 was not white but silver. Stripping the paint from the Lancaster woukd have been cheaper and lighter.
Both good points...

I am sure the Lancaster crews would have done their duty but the margins would have been wafer thin (whatever the colour of the Lancs). A lighter Lancaster might have given them another couple hundred feet of altitude. I would have gone for the silver and lighter option that you mention.
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#15 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:53 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:49 pm
Stripping the paint from the Lancaster would have been cheaper and lighter.
Who'da thunk it?

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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#16 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:48 am

TGG, so you think the crews would have been told about the risk assessment?

We were not told everything. We were assured the over pressure on the V-bombers would be 0.98 psi and they would not receive structures damage below 1.25.

Ground crew carried little radiation monitor tags; aircrew were not issued with them. I must read Rexford-Welch paper on Victor 2 contamination.

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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#17 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:08 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:48 am
TGG, so you think the crews would have been told about the risk assessment?

We were not told everything. We were assured the over pressure on the V-bombers would be 0.98 psi and they would not receive structures damage below 1.25.

Ground crew carried little radiation monitor tags; aircrew were not issued with them. I must read Rexford-Welch paper on Victor 2 contamination.

Well I guess you were told more than the poor buggers on the ground on Christmas island and some of the crews who were instructed to fly though the bomb's cloud during the tests in Australia...
In the United Kingdom it was also decided that a Canberra aircraft should fly through the atomic cloud as soon as possible after the explosion to assess the aircraft’s behaviour under such conditions and to gain information on types and levels of contamination...
The first time a Canberra bomber flew through a mushroom cloud to gather radiation samples was in October 1953, during Operation Totem.
commanded by RAF pilot Geoffrey Dhenin, the plane flew at 30,000 feet above the Australian desert north of Woomera for the Totem 1 test—the
source of the black mist that reportedly blinded Yami Lester (Chapter 1). After testing the level of radioactivity with sensors mounted on the wing,
Dhenin made an initial pass through the mushroom cloud, followed by two more: one through the base and one through the top. On return
to base, the aircraft was tested and found to be contaminated with radioactivity. Despite shielding on the aircraft, Dhenin and the two other
crew members received high doses of gamma radiation. Britain’s chief nuclear scientist William Penney told Dhenin that the aircrew had been exposed to radiation doses above the permitted level. Although they were scheduled to perform the same task for the Totem 2 test within a fortnight, the crew were withdrawn, with Penney telling Dhenin:

Go home, boy. You have done enough. I cannot authorise such a thing a second time. Penney later brusquely dismissed the danger to the pilots, telling the 1984 Royal Commission: The fact that the crew of an RAF Canberra received significant doses of radiation as a result of their early passage through the cloud was reported to me. I did not regard it as very serious as it was a once in a lifetime dose.
Personally I felt a certain amount of contempt for Penney for the way he treated the physicists and staff in the wake of the Windscale fire...

http://press-files.anu.edu.au/downloads ... f/ch11.pdf
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#18 Post by ian16th » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:26 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:40 pm
I have that Cobham book thanks to one of the chaps that posts here. It is a must for any pilot's, aviation enthusiast's, geek's, nerd's library.
Was yours signed by the author?

Mine was, but I hadn't asked for it. I'd rather have had Mike Beetham sign his foreword.
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#19 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:39 pm

ian16th wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:26 am
TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:40 pm
I have that Cobham book thanks to one of the chaps that posts here. It is a must for any pilot's, aviation enthusiast's, geek's, nerd's library.
Was yours signed by the author?

Mine was, but I hadn't asked for it. I'd rather have had Mike Beetham sign his foreword.
Yes ian16th I have the Colin Cruddas signed copy.
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Re: The secret black Lancasters & the atomic bomb

#20 Post by ian16th » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:59 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:39 pm
ian16th wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:26 am
TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:40 pm
I have that Cobham book thanks to one of the chaps that posts here. It is a must for any pilot's, aviation enthusiast's, geek's, nerd's library.
Was yours signed by the author?

Mine was, but I hadn't asked for it. I'd rather have had Mike Beetham sign his foreword.
Yes ian16th I have the Colin Cruddas signed copy.
I wonder if he signed them all?
I don't think it would have been a big job.
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