Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

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TheGreenGoblin
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Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#1 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:48 am

In searching for the story behind Nigger and his master, Wing-Commander Guy Gibson, I came across this excellent article by journalist, historian and writer Max Hastings..

Exploding the Dam Buster's Myth
Like most of my generation, I grew up embracing the legend, my enthusiasm sparked by Paul Brickhill’s 1951 book, then fanned into ecstasy by Michael Anderson’s 1955 The Dam Busters, most popular British war movie of all time. Matinee idol Richard Todd portrayed Gibson; Michael Redgrave played the bomb’s inventor, engineer Barnes Wallis. The story seemed to reflect a heroism that was victimless, save for fifty-three dead among the young men who made the attack. It carried none of the moral baggage that has become associated with the offensive against Germany’s cities.
As ever it shows that life is full of ambiguities, myths and often a great deal of sadness, tempered by great courage and also that stories evolve and are sometimes regarded differently in the evolving fullness of time...
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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#2 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:59 am

Of the 1,400 civilian fatalities, more than 800 were allied POWs and other allied slave workers.

Nowadays the raid would be classified as a crime against humanity as attacking such a target is prohibited by the current Geneva Conventions. In 1943, not so much.

That reminds me, somewhere in the attic I have a notebook of my grandfather who was an accredited War Correspondent. It's his handwritten notes of a formal interview he did with a Squadron Leader Guy Gibson of Coastal Command. The same Gibson?

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#3 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:20 am

UP, it would seem so if you read wiki

In February 1940, Gibson was one of the members of the squadron put on temporary secondment to Coastal Command at RAF Lossiemouth. On 27 February, he participated in an operation that was sent to attack a U-Boat. However, owing to various communications problems, one of the aircraft dropped its bombs on a Royal Navy submarine. The senior officers involved with the incident were censured for their failure to bring the squadron up to a satisfactory standard. The squadron then underwent a period of intensive training.[29]

The period from April to September 1940 was one of the most operationally intense periods of Gibson's career. He completed 34 operations in 5 months, with 10 in June. The type of operation varied from "gardening" – laying mines in various seaways and harbour entrances – to attacks on capital ships, as well as attacks on ground-based military and economic targets. During this time, he acquired a reputation for being seemingly fearless, particularly as he was willing to fly in marginal weather. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) on 9 July 1940

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#4 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:27 am

In the 1950s most people who had lived through the war still equated Nazi with all Germans. What Hastings of youthful bravery can be transferred to the Hitler Youth too.

Of Gibson, one description was 'arch bastard'. I have flown with and known similar. Thankfully most were other navigators are our pilots were more protective of our little pink bodies.

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#5 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:12 pm

Some upcoming related UK TV:

Mon 30 Nov - The Dam Busters film - Film4 @ 1535

The Dambusters - a new three part documentary on Channel 5 @ 2100 each night with Dan Snow - Tues 1/Wed 2/Thurs 3 Dec.
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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#6 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:00 pm

I haven't got a telly and don't want one. Does C5 have a website which shows progs after they have been transmitted?

I'd like to see that prog/series.

A documentary I saw some years ago indicated that Gibson was a bit of an arsehole. They said that he regarded officers junior to himself as inferior beings and that he wouldn't even deign to speak to non-commissioned ORs at all as he thought them to be some kind of sub-human species.

There's no doubt that he was a brilliant pilot and a very brave man, but he could have done with a bit of CRM training.

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#7 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:28 pm

UP - the catchup website for Channel 5 is My5 at https://www.my5.tv/ . I haven't used it myself but hopefully they will show the Dan Snow three part series. There is a "Recently added" header which I suppose will be where those programmes will appear some time after transmission.
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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#8 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:48 pm

I shall watch it as soon as it's uploaded there.

I can't use BBC iPlayer as I don't have a TV Licence. There is a telly in one of the guest rooms, but that's the Memsahib's responsibility, not mine.

I'm guessing that Channel 5 is beyond the remit of the Licence enforcers.

I don't wanna break the Law, but I'd like to see Snow's version of the 'dam buster' tale. He seems to me to be pretty good teller of approximately truthful historical tales

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#9 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:52 pm

There was a rather good one done by a minor movie star. He went in a Piper or Cessna twin in daylight VFR and tried to navigate by mapreading for an ex-RAF pilot.

Mebbe I'm confused. Mebbe that one was about the Amiens jailbreak raid.

I shall have to delve into goochoob to find out if I'm just talking shite (again).

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#10 Post by CharlieOneSix » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:03 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:48 pm
......I'm guessing that Channel 5 is beyond the remit of the Licence enforcers.
Watching Channel 5 live requires a TV licence. You can watch ITV Player, All4 and My5 without a TV licence – as long as you're not using them to watch live TV. So you're legal to watch the Dan Snow catch-up on My5.
The helicopter pilots' mantra: If it hasn't gone wrong then it's just about to...
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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#11 Post by G-CPTN » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:32 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:52 pm
There was a rather good one done by a minor movie star. He went in a Piper or Cessna twin in daylight VFR and tried to navigate by mapreading for an ex-RAF pilot.
Martin Shaw Piper Navajo, Wing Commander Chris Norton.
They will then go on to trace the squadron's original route from RAF Scampton, in Lincolnshire, to the Ruhr Valley in Germany, using 1940s navigation methods and with special dispensation from the Civil Aviation Authority to fly at the same ultra-low level used by the Lancaster bombers.

Dambusters Declassified was broadcast regionally on BBC One and later nationally on BBC Two.

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#12 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:33 pm

While the prospect of ultra low level at night was undoubtedly difficult it is not something that could be replicated today, day or night.

Given blackout their night vision would have been significantly better than could be experienced today. Then the visual aspect between day and night would be different. Water features and railway lines can stand out at night in the right conditions. By day they can be less obvious compared with other features.

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#13 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:32 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:52 pm
There was a rather good one done by a minor movie star. He went in a Piper or Cessna twin in daylight VFR and tried to navigate by mapreading for an ex-RAF pilot.

Mebbe I'm confused. Mebbe that one was about the Amiens jailbreak raid.

I shall have to delve into goochoob to find out if I'm just talking shite (again).
Martin Shaw. They flew down to the dams...




Martin Shaw Aviators

The real difficulty with that route these days is all the confounded restricted airspace...


Mr Shaw used to hangar his beautiful Stearman at Old Buckenham. Beautifully restored now after this unfortunate incident some years back. Mr Shaw was not the perpetrator of this indignity to his aircraft.

MS Stearman.JPG
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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#14 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:05 pm

Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#15 Post by CharlieOneSix » Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:52 pm

I see that the Dam Busters film tomorrow on Film4 is "edited for content". I wonder what that could be.......
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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#16 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:08 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:52 pm
I see that the Dam Busters film tomorrow on Film4 is "edited for content". I wonder what that could be.......
The whole Nigger niggle again...
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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#17 Post by Undried Plum » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:08 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:32 pm
Undried Plum wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:52 pm
There was a rather good one done by a minor movie star. He went in a Piper or Cessna twin in daylight VFR and tried to navigate by mapreading for an ex-RAF pilot.

Mebbe I'm confused. Mebbe that one was about the Amiens jailbreak raid.

I shall have to delve into goochoob to find out if I'm just talking shite (again).
Martin Shaw. They flew down to the dams...
Thass the one!

**** brilliant exposition!

Well worth watching again.

Forget the nigger. Watch the aeroplanes.

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Re: Myths that abide with Operation Chastise...

#18 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:04 am

Watched the 3rd episode last night. No mention of a black lab just the codeword. No mention of Goner either. Less up beat and more detailed than the film, but of course much was still secret then.

I thought the conclusion was profound and not something that had occurred to me. I knew the dams were repaired in months. Why did Bomber Command not attack the repairs while in progress? Conventional raids could have caused sufficient damage?

Was it because the economic effect after the breaches was not as great as hoped for?

Was it because it was known the work was being done by slave labour?

I know the slave Labour compound at Penemude was hit. Were the Atlantic Wall construction sites attacked as the wall was being constructed?

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#19 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:37 pm

Guy Gibson got a VC for that kindathing, y'know.

Y'know, dams and stuff.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#20 Post by OFSO » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:24 am

Reminder: that bombing raid disrupted the German war effort for slightly over two weeks. Hardly a good return for the number of (British) lives lost.

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