The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

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FD2
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Re: The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

#261 Post by FD2 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:12 am

Another rather grainy picture of the damage sustained by XV706 after its tail rotor failure over a field on the Mull of Kintyre. It shows the extent of the damage much better.

XV706 TR DS Failure b.jpg
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Re: The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

#262 Post by 500N » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:19 am

FD2

Re "The two crew and one passenger were in a life raft for two hours or so before a ship picked them up."

A couple of questions if I may.

Why did a ship pick them up and not a SAR helicopter, if such a thing existed in 1970 ?

Is 2 hours in a life raft longer than what would be expected or is that normal for something 50 miles off shore ?

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Re: The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

#263 Post by FD2 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:41 am

500N:
At that time the rescue capabilities of aircraft tasked for SAR was very limited. Before the advent of the Wessex 1 which had a fairly primitive auto-hover capability it was limited to machines like the Whirlwind which had no night rescue capability. The Wessex 3 had a great system with a Doppler radar and rad alt hover system so it could winch at night - the trouble was it could only fly for about 1 hr 30 minutes between refuels - less if there was any high power hovering involved at the other end. That meant a radius of action of about 50 or 60 miles and more to the point it was not ever primarily an SAR machine. It wasn't until the advent of the Sea King in the early 1970s that a truly capable SAR aircraft became available. There is even a limited authority joy stick control for the man in the doorway down the back to control the hover - forwards and backwards - but not up and down!

If November Mike was ditched 50 miles or so north east of Aberdeen the only units which could have responded were probably at RNAS Lossiemouth (Station Flight Wessex 1, but not tasked for night cover if memory serves me correctly) and probably a Whirlwind 10 (turbine single engine) available at RAF Leuchars down the coast in Fife, which would have been strictly daylight only. The RAF dedicated SAR Sea Kings were not on the scene until much later, so if you were flying round the North Sea at that time, most of it was outside night SAR range and even day SAR if you were out further offshore. The nearest Sea King unit was probably 819 Squadron at Prestwick which was rather a long way away. Other than that it was up to shipping in the area and the RNLI lifeboat, which would probably have taken up to 3 hours to reach them.

Sound about right CharlieOneSix?

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Re: The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

#264 Post by FD2 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:45 am

PS

I've lost touch with where the civilian SAR machines are based now but if this incident had occurred earlier this year then the dedicated RAF Sea King at what is now RAF Lossiemouth would probably have been on the scene and winching in about an hour at night.

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Re: The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

#265 Post by CharlieOneSix » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:01 am

FD2 - I had drafted an almost exact copy of what you have said in reply to 500N but you beat me to it!! Wouldn't Lossie still have had the Whirlwind as SAR in 1970? Certainly no night over water SAR capability.

We could night winch over water with the Wessex 1 - in fact MPC and I rescued a Gannet crew who ditched at night from Ark Royal in May 1966. Although our main task was anti-submarine we provided night planeguard cover for the fixed-wing as the Ship's Flight Whirlwinds were day only. Two rescues in a few hours for me as we lost a Vixen earlier the same day. I think before my time that the first Wessex 1 night over water rescue was carried out about 3 years before that. As you say the autohover was fairly primitive and was a simplex system so no back up if it failed at a critical point.
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Re: The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

#266 Post by 500N » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:27 am

Thank you for the answers, got things into a better perspective now as to what was available and when.

Great thread.

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Re: The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

#267 Post by FD2 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:30 pm

25th April 1982

The Argentinian submarine Santa Fe had been tasked with landing a party of marines and supplies at Grytviken in South Georgia. They accomplished the task and were leaving harbour when they were detected on radar by the observer (Lt Chris Parry) in HMS Antrim flight's Wessex 3 (XP142) which was loaded with two Mk 11 depth charges for exactly this eventuality. The old Mk11 weighed about 250 lbs and contained 180 lbs of Torpex explosive and two were dropped - one either side of the submarine. This attack caused extensive internal damage, including the splitting of a ballast tank, the dismounting of electrical components and shocks to the machinery.

The killing radius of a depth charge depends on the depth of detonation, the proximity of detonation to the submarine, the payload of the depth charge and the size and strength of the submarine hull. A depth charge of approximately 100 kg of TNT would normally have a killing radius (hull breach) of only 3–4 metres (10–13 ft) against a conventional 1000-ton submarine, while the disablement radius (where the submarine is not sunk but put out of commission) would be approximately 8–10 metres (26–33 ft). A larger payload increases the radius only relatively little because the effect of an underwater explosion decreases as the cube of the distance to the target. The Mk 11 only had 80 kgs of explosive so they must have exploded very close to the hull.

The Mk 11 depth charge was developed by British Aerospace (now BAE Systems) for air delivery from maritime aircraft and helicopters. It was designed for shallow water operations against submarines on the surface or at periscope depths. It is fully compatible for carriage and release from a wide range of ASW helicopters and fixed-wing maritime patrol aircraft. The Mod 3 version incorporates a 4mm mild steel outer case and nose section, which is designed to withstand entry into the water at high velocities without distortion. It has been cleared for carriage on Lynx, Merlin, NH90, Sea King and Wasp helicopters. The two I dropped back in the early 70s were very old stock and subject to detonation on hitting the sea surface so we dropped them from 500 ft to see how close we could get them to a smoke float!

Despite attacks from a Lynx with a Mk 46 torpedo (failed) and AS12 missiles (not much use against the strong hull of a submarine), plus being strafed by machine gun fire from two helicopters, the slowly sinking sub made it back alongside and then mounted a vigorous defence but eventually surrendered along with the local garrison after having to abandon their partially sunk submarine. Well done to all those concerned in this opening action of the Falklands War - a war which as ever was due to the overwhelming vanity and stupidity of politicians. Looking back I'm glad I was a civilian by that time but lost some very good chums there. X(

Here is a much better than average painting of the depth charge attack:

406 Mk11 Santa Fe.jpg
406 Mk11 Santa Fe.jpg (38.63 KiB) Viewed 916 times



And here a Mk 11 on a trolley:

Mk11 depth charge.jpg
Mk11 depth charge.jpg (87.98 KiB) Viewed 916 times



And finally fitted to the port weapon carrier on a Wessex:

Mk 11 on Wessex 3.jpg
Mk 11 on Wessex 3.jpg (102.69 KiB) Viewed 916 times

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Re: The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

#268 Post by CharlieOneSix » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:52 pm

FD2 wrote:..........when they were detected on radar by the observer (Lt Chris Parry) in HMS Antrim flight's Wessex 3 (XP142) which was loaded with two Mk 11 depth charges for exactly this eventuality.......


XP142 'Humphrey' is on show in the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton. A month or so after the Santa Fe incident HMS Antrim was attacked by Argentinian Dagger jets that strafed her with their canons. 'Humphrey' was damaged by splinters from the shells, making many holes that are still visible.

The photo below is from 1967 and the Wessex HAS Mk3 Intensive Flying Trials Unit. It shows a Mk3 over HMS Dreadnought, Britains first nuclear submarine. Long before the days of Photoshop this is a 'fake' photograph produced by the Culdrose Phot Dept as we never met up with Dreadnought during the trials. Dreadnought was withdrawn from service in 1980. She now lies in afloat storage in Rosyth Dockyard in Scotland with her nuclear fuel removed. Campaigners hope that she will be returned to Barrow - where she was built - as a tourist attraction in the town.

Dreadnought.jpg
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Re: The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread

#269 Post by CharlieOneSix » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:10 pm

Found another photo from the time of the snow problems in Kent in March 1970. Yours truly taking off again in Bell 47J2 G-ASLR with an Electricity Board engineer to find the location of more downed lines....

A great little helicopter to fly although it could catch you out with its limited tail rotor authority.

LR-March-70.jpg
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