Fortuna Glacier...

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Fortuna Glacier...

#1 Post by Cacophonix » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:15 pm

CharlieOneSix's the 'Wessex pilot's lament' brought to mind one operation during the Falkland's war that I was unaware of until recently, namely the use of the aircraft to insert special forces onto South Georgia during the Falklands war which operation went awry when weather conditions and the glacier itself stopped the men from advancing (which didn't surprise the Naval officers at all). The story of the aerial recovery of these men is well worth a listen... The following story about the submarine hunt is fascinating. Let is be said that the SAS et al didn't do themselves or their reputation any favours here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Santa_Fe_(S-21)

From WIki...
When Argentina militarily occupied the Falkland Islands and South Georgia, the British Armed Forces recaptured the island in 'Operation Paraquet', thereby removing the Argentinian military presence and restoring the island to British Sovereignty. It was decided to land a mountain troop of Special Air Service and 42 Royal Marine Commandos on the glacier, to approach Grytviken from the most unlikely direction. After the troops were landed on the glacier in conditions of extremely poor visibility and gale extreme force winds on 21 April, their conditions deteriorated rapidly still further. During several repeated rescue attempts the following day by a Wessex 3 (Antrim) and two Wessex V (Tidespring) helicopters, the Wessex V aircraft crashed in extreme weather conditions. The Wessex 3, crewed by Lt Cdr Ian Stanley, Lt Chris Parry, Sub Lt Stewart Cooper and PO ACMN David Fitzgerald, succeeded in rescuing all troops and aircrew in an amazing feat of flying and navigation just before dark. On returning to Antrim, the Wessex 3 (which can be seen at the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton, Somerset) held 16 personnel instead of its normal 4 capacity.


This amazing recovery of the the troops by air is recounted here by Chris Parry himself...

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLn2TJZqR_o[/bbvideo]

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#2 Post by CharlieOneSix » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:24 pm

Thanks for that video Caco - I'll watch it later when I have a quiet hour. FD2 was an Antrim pilot but that was prior to the Falklands War. Chris Parry's Wessex 3 was XP142, nicknamed Humphrey, and it's in the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton. In the picture below you can see small red circles - those indicate the damage caused by an Argentinian Dagger when Antrim was attacked by it.

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#3 Post by FD2 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:08 am

Caco:

Very many thanks for the link to Chris Parry's lecture.

On 'The Ever Growing Helo Photo Thread' page 14 there is a better view of the painting he refers to, showing the depth charge attack on the Santa Fe. As he says, it's used some artistic licence as the sub was almost submerged at the time and the vis was about half a mile. He describes the clamour for a piece of the action very well - I suppose that anyone who gets the ears of the Press first (they were onboard HMS Endurance I think) is half way towards getting their participation recognised, rightly or wrongly. In C16's photo of Humphrey you can see a (hopefully inert) Mk 11 depth charge on the starboard carrier. The aircraft we used in Antrim Flight back about 1972 was called Kaboubi after the winged camel in the Arabian Nights.

The standard of Ian Stanley's flying to get the SAS off the glacier after the two Junglie aircraft had crashed was quite outstanding. He had ditched off Portland a few years before and had the RAF exchange officer, Squadron Leader John Findlater, in the back, as well as John's relief (Gerry Gerrard) who was receiving a handover. He would have gained double points for two crabs in one ditching :ymdevil: but luckily all escaped safely. Gerry had a difficult escape though, so in true naval fashion of shutting the stable door etc #:-S he was promptly sent off to the 'Dunker' to learn how to do it properly. The ASW pilots had the advantage over the 'Junglies' of spending a lot of time flying on instruments but I think the Junglies had more fun...

I would strongly recommend Chris Parry's book 'Down South'. He gets the version of the Wessex wrong in his talk as a Mk1 - it was a Mk3 - but the first of the County Class destroyers did carry Mk 1s. There was a story that the naval architects didn't know how big the Wessex would be as Westland hadn't built one at that stage. They therefore designed the hangar to take a Sikorsky S58, which the Wessex would be modelled on. When it came to putting the first Wessex in the first ship's hangar it was found to be too high by a couple of inches, so could only be inserted with the tyres partially deflated - the hangar doors had to be re-designed. Also the awkward positioning of the hangar was due to the need to keep the Sea Slug launcher and its guidance radar transmitter as close together as possible. If the missile passed through the guidance beam too fast it would exit the beam on the other side and be lost.

Here are some photos of Antrim's sister ship Glamorgan and the damage done by the land launched Exocet which hit her. It penetrated the deck just outside the hangar and went into the galley and canteen below. The big radar bin-like aerial in front of the Flight Deck is the Sea Slug guidance radar. The missile launcher itself is aft of the Flight Deck. Glamorgan's part in the war is told in the late Ian Inskip's book 'Ordeal by Exocet'. He was her navigating officer during the conflict and it's another good read. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2 ... he-falkla/

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#4 Post by Cacophonix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:47 am

FD2 wrote:Caco:

Very many thanks for the link to Chris Parry's lecture


An absoute pleasure FD2 and thank you very much for the facinating insights, photographs, knowledgeable comments and links in your post.

Excuse my ignorance but with respect to the IFR flight up the glacier to retrieve the troops (and then again to retrieve the remaining troops and downed pilots) I am assuming that one (or all?) of the helicopters must have been equipped with radar to have even attempted such a hairy operationn in those conditions? Talk about operations in extremis! The pilots and their crews deserved a medal for their flying in those conditions alone.

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#5 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:32 pm

We didn't have any radar in the cockpit of the Mk3. The observer had a radar/tactical display in front of him but he was sat down in the back of the Wessex alongside the sonar aircrewman in the ASW role. The radar view forward was restricted by the airflow fairing in front of the external radar 'hump', the cockpit and rotor head gubbins.

I have no knowledge of this but it's entirely possible that the observer's and sonar operator's stations were removed from the helicopter prior to rescuing the other crews - it may be mentioned in Chris Parry's video but I haven't been able to watch it yet.

Observer's station in the Wessex Mk3 cabin - taken from the sonar operator's position.

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700(H) Wessex Mk 3 'in the dip' showing the radar 'hump'. The observer's window is the forward of the two in front of the number '8'.
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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#6 Post by Cacophonix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:38 pm

Thanks for the that info and the photos CharlieOneSix.

Listening to Chris Parry's lecture, he references call outs from the observer so I am guessing that one of the aircraft might have been equipped with radar and that times, distance to run and required headings might have been obtained and relayed from a lead aircraft that was followed by aircraft not so-equipped as they advanced in line up the steep valley between the glacier walls and terra firma below. As I say that is my supposition, and I don't know the facts, but I reckon that to have flown, with all unequipped with any sort of useful radio aid in at least one of the aircraft, VFR in such close proximity to ice and rocks would have been tantamount to suicide as they were in thick cloud (as Chris Parry highlights).

Even with radar (and in the manner I have suggested which would have required visual reference with the aircraft in front for those following) to have navigated up and down, not once, but twice, was a consummate piece of airmanship on the part of all the crews involved.

I will endeavour to obtain the exact details of how these flights were made (call me a nerd if you will) and report back here. I just have to know now.

Really appreciate the input of the two helicopter pilots here who have done this sort of stuff themselves with the insouciance of the very skilled for years and years and walked away with nary a scratch. Quite humbling to contemplate that really.

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#7 Post by Cacophonix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:56 pm

I didn't have far to go to get all the gen (the RAF site has it all). Well worth reading the whole piece which can be found here.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/history/Therecap ... eorgia.cfm

Before Santa Fe could land her troops the British Task Force was off South Georgia. The first order of business was to land the SAS mountain troop onto the Fortuna Glacier using 3 Wessex helicopters. A reconnaissance was made of the glacier at first light on 21 April by the radar-equipped Wessex HAS 3 helicopter from HMS Antrim and, although there was some wind and driving rain, conditions seemed suitable for the operation. The Wessex 3 returned to pick up four SAS men, and the Wessex HAS 5s from RFA Tidespring landed alternately on Antrim's deck to embark more. The plan was for the radar of the Wessex 3 to lead the 5s up onto the glacier by radar. The operation had to be abandoned after they encountered thick low cloud, driving rain and snow storms in Possession Bay. After some hours the weather improved, and a second attempt was made - the helicopters climbed onto the glacier in swirling low cloud. The visibility and navigation problems were made worse by frequent driving squalls of snow and sudden changes in wind speed and direction. Nevertheless, the three helicopters reached the landing zone and delivered their troops and their equipment. They returned to the ships by way of Possession and Antarctic Bays to avoid being sighted by Argentine observers.

During the night of 21 April the barometer fell sharply to 960 millibars and a force 10 snowstorm, which gusted to 70 knots, blew all night. The windchill factor on the glacier was dangerously high. The wind blew away the troops' shelters, and after nearly 24 hours in the blizzard and intense cold, the Mountain Troop men - under Captain John Hamilton of the Green Howards - radioed at 11:00 on 22 April that they had been unable to move off the glacier, that they could not survive another 12 hours and that frostbite cases or 'environmental casualties' were imminent.

It was decided to extract them using the same formation as before. Conditions were much worse than the day before, with swirling low clouds and driving snowstorms sweeping across the glacier. The wind was very changeable, gusting to 70 knots and then dropping unexpectedly to ten, which caused problems of severe mechanical turbulence over the mountains. It was decided to leave the Wessex 5s orbiting in Antarctic Bay while the Wessex 3 tried three times to get onto the glacier. The 5s landed on a spit of land to conserve fuel. In the end, all three helicopters had to return to their ships to refuel.

A second attempt was made immediately, and this was successful. The three helicopters climbed the glacier, sighted the smoke ignited by the troops to indicate their position and wind direction, and landed there during a welcome break in the weather. But as the SAS men were boarding, the wind blew strongly again and whipped up the snow. One of the Tidespring's Wessex 5s, call sign YA, had been the first to load troops and was ready for take-off, and so the pilot decided to lift immediately. As he took off and moved forward, he lost all external reference in the 'white out' and crashed, skidding for some 50 yards and ending up on his side. The other two helicopters had now embarked their troops, so they lifted and landed next to the crashed YA where they loaded its aircrew and soldiers. Half were taken onto the other Wessex 5, call sign YF, which dumped fuel to carry the extra load as did the Wessex 3, which had the other half.

Visibility by this time was practically zero, and the wind and snow had not abated. With the survivors on board, the Wessex 3, call sign 406, took off with YF following astern and they made their way down the glacier. Some seconds later, they traversed a small ridge, YF was seen to flare violently and strike the top. It rolled over onto its side and could not be contacted by radio. The overloaded 406 had to return to the ship some 30 miles away to the north. The passengers were disembarked and medical supplies and blankets were taken on board. The Wessex 3 then flew back towards the glacier, but the foul weather prevented landing. Contact was however made by radio with the crashed YF, and it was confirmed that there were no serious casualties.

The Wessex 3 returned to Antrim to wait for a break in the weather. About an hour later an opportunity presented itself, and 406 flew back to the glacier and managed to locate the survivors. They were embarked and, somewhat overloaded with 17 passengers and their kit, got back to Antrim some 35 minutes later. For these feats of incredible airmanship and dedication to duty, the pilot of 406, Lt. Commander Ian Stanley RN, was awarded the Distinguished Service Order.

On the same day as the SAS were landed on the glacier the SBS tried to land south of Grytviken. However, the 2 Scout helicopters transporting them could not climb over a mountain due to a blizzard, so they had to turn back. Several hours later another team was ready to be put ashore. This time they were to go in Gemini inflatable rubber assault boats, with their somewhat unreliable 30-kilowatt outboard motors. Using five boats, 15 men of 2 Section SBS and Boat Troop D Sqn 22 SAS set out in three-man patrols. Almost as soon as it was launched, the first boat's engine failed and it was swept out to sea. Another suffered the same fate in the Antarctic night. One crew was recovered after a 7 hour search by the Wessex HAS 3, the other boat managed to make a landfall on the last piece of land before the open sea. Such was the dedication and training of these troops that they waited for several days before they switched on their Sarbe (search and rescue beacon) in case its signals put the operation in jeopardy.

The other patrols landed successfully earlier on, just after midnight, at the north end of Sirling Valley. They reported just after midday that ice from the glacier was being blown into Cumberland East Bay and was puncturing the rubber skins of their Geminis, so they could not cross the bay to continue on mission. They were recovered during the night of 22 April, and the following day were put ashore in Moraine Fjord. During a lull in the blizzard on 23 April, Mountain Troop were landed again on the Fortuna Glacier, and this time were able to proceed with their mission.


Multiple flights (and rescue). Quite extraordninary.

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#8 Post by FD2 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:31 pm

Sorry about the Antipodean delay!

The SAS were carried by two Mk 5 Wessex which have two engines (one exhaust each side) and just seats in the back for the troops. The Mk 3 had only one engine (despite the two exhausts!) and it was a difficult call whether to remove the bulky sonar gubbins next to the observer as it was quite an elaborate and time consuming job. It saved quite a lot of weight though as the Type 195 sonar body itself was quite a heavy object.

I don't know if the two Mk 5s had two pilots that day as they could be flown single pilot. The Mk 3 could also be flown single pilot but we usually had two up front for ASW operations so there was a very high level of crew co-operation - especially as there were only 4 aircrew in these flights and we got to work together very well. The flying pilot was often conned by one of the guys in the cabin for SAR and load-lifting jobs.

In the glacier rescue a lot of the flying was more like a hover taxy up and down and a lot of that was sideways due to the very high winds. It was not probably extremely poor vis as they would have iced up and no one would have been able to gain sufficient visual references to get in and out of the crash sites. There are fairly strict limits as to the amount of cross wind and tail wind it was permissable to hover in, gained by the Boscombe Trials people but in a case like this I'm sure they would have given it all it could take in order to get the SAS and Jungly aircrew out and bugger the strain on any components. They wouldn't have risked 'proper' forward flight IMC in those weather conditions I think. The radar was very poor resolution as well and though useful for picking up ships, coastlines, submarine periscopes and snorts would not have provided any help in approaching the glacier IMC.

We once lifted three of the crew of a ditched Sea King off Portland and stuck them in the back of our Wessex 3 - there really wasn't much room left over!

I'll have another look at that section of Parry's book to find out more about the glacier rescue.

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#9 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:50 pm

17 with kit in the back of a Mk3 with the ASW role equipment still installed plus two crewmen would have been extremely friendly but needs must!
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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#10 Post by FD2 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:34 am

Bugger! Can't find my copy anywhere - I've had to order another one online. Memo to self - make a note when I lend someone a book!!! X(

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#11 Post by FD2 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:42 am

This is a Wessex Mk 5 (845 Squadron from HMS Hermes) in Norway, probably about 1975. They disembarked to Bardufoss to work with 45 Commando Royal Marines for winter training in the snow and ice. :-bd

Note nothing in the back - no sonar or radar.

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#12 Post by FD2 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:48 am

From the RN Flight Safety Calendar 1985, cartoon by the brilliant Tugg:

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#13 Post by Cacophonix » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:10 am

I came across this post on the ever excellent Arsse forum... (NB - They are not mine and I believe they are the property of Mr Cooper).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stewartco ... 473996084/

I used to work with a chap who flew choppers down in the South Atlantic circa 1982. He was mensioned in dispatches for his part in rescuing 22 SAS off of the glacier.

Whilst trying to get back in contact I came across his Flickr account and he has scanned in some of the photos he took of the incident, before and after. I thought I would share as some of you may be interested.

There are 44 images of "Humphry", Antrim, Santa Fe, Illustrious etc etc, but the images from this one onwards are of 22 sas with descriptions of what is happening
.

The photos are of historic interest and value and these ones piqued my interest especially given the subject of this thread...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stewartco ... 473996084/

Mike Tidd's Wessex 5 lies in the snow with the engine still not yet shut down and all members of its crew still inside. Iain Georgeson's helicopter is in the background. Ths photo was taken from the cockpit of HMS Antrim's Wessex 3. The guys inside this helicopter were split between Iain Georgeson's and our aircraft. Iain was to crash his Wessex about 5 or 10 minutes later as he passed over a rise on the glacier's surface in white-out conditions.


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This is one of the RFA Tidespring Wessex 5's on its way to Fortuna Glacier with members of 22 SAS on board.


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Removal of the sonar from the back of Humphrey prior to Falklands action (around 5th April 1982).


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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#14 Post by Cacophonix » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:40 pm

The friends of the helicopter museum site also has some pithy information and highlights the use of radar in the Wessex 3 during the operation plus the removal of the sonar equipment from the same aricraft...

Two weeks later, on 21st April, a force of British ships, including HMS Antrim and RFA Tidepool, joined HMS Endurance off South Georgia. An unwise decision to land sixteen SAS men on the Fortuna Glacier, using two Westland Wessex HU.5s, XT464 and XT473, from RFA Tidepool, led by Antrim's radar-equipped Wessex HAS.3, XP142, was followed by a call, on the following day, for their premature evacuation by the three helicopters, in the face of treacherous weather.

Blizzard conditions during the evacuation caused both loaded Wessex HU.5s to crash on the glacier, fortunately without serious injuries. The Wessex 3 had to fly back to HMS Antrim, with its passengers, but it returned when the weather improved slightly, three hours later. All fourteen of the remaining aircrew and SAS men were then rescued from the glacier. Fortunately most of XP142's dipping sonar equipment had been removed from the cabin into storage, during Antrim's journey south from Ascension, to reduce weight and increase space.


http://www.hmfriends.org.uk/falklands25th.html

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#15 Post by Boac » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:23 pm

Can anyone expand on what looks like a 'leaning' sub fin in two of the pictures there?

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#16 Post by ian16th » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:25 pm

Didn't someone disable an Argentinean sub with an anti tank missile fired from a chopper?
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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#17 Post by Boac » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:59 pm

Thanks for the 'jog', Ian - from Wiki
"ARA Santa Fe was an Argentine Balao-class submarine which was lost during the Falklands War. Built during the Second World War, the submarine served in United States Navy as USS Catfish (SS-339) before being commissioned into the Argentine Navy in 1971. She served until 1982 when she was captured by the British at South Georgia after being seriously damaged and subsequently sank along a pier, with just her sail visible above the waterline. The submarine was raised, towed out of the bay and scuttled in deep waters in 1985."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Santa_Fe_(S-21)

and

the story by Chris Parry in caco's link in post 1

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#18 Post by Boac » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:39 pm

Sadly I see an Argie sub is 'missing' and I hope all will be well, unless Chris Parry has been on holiday with some mates, of course......... ;)

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#19 Post by Cacophonix » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:07 pm

One hopes that the Argentinian crew are safe. I can think of no lonelier place than being stuck in the darkness on the seabed knowing that you are out of contact with anybody and that nobody knows where you are!

The Argentine navy said it ordered "all terrestrial communication stations along the Argentine coast to carry out a preliminary and extended search of communications and to listen into all the possible frequencies of the submarine."

The US Navy said it was helping. It planned to deploy a P8-A Poseidon maritime aircraft to Argentina on Saturday, the US Naval Forces Southern Command said in a statement.

The 21-person US crew had been in El Salvador supporting "counter-illicit trafficking patrol operations," the agency said in a statement. The aircraft also had assisted in a search for a South Korean ship that sank in April in the South Atlantic, and more recently, it was sent to Dominica in the aftermath of Hurricane Maria.

NASA also will help in the search with a P-3 Orion aircraft, agency spokeswoman Katherine Brown told CNN. She said the US plane was "already in Argentina on a scientific mission."

The P-3 is a turboprop aircraft capable of long-duration flights, according to NASA.


http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/17/ameri ... index.html

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Re: Fortuna Glacier...

#20 Post by FD2 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:35 pm

Let's hope that the Argentine navy is right and they're just out of communication with their submarine. I don't know the water depth that far out ('250 miles') but if it has sunk then the prospects are poor. They would first have to locate it in a huge area but if the sub's crew haven't released a marker buoy there's still some hope it's afloat.

The Santa Fe was forced to return to Grytviken harbour after being straddled by two depth charges dropped by HMS Antrim's Wessex. I don't think the later missile attacks would have worried them too much as the depth charges had blown off a propeller and sprung leaks in the sub's hull. It's all in Parry's talk.

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