You seem to forget that there are Helicopters and then there are Robinsons.
I intended that to be the gist of my slightly tongue in cheek post but maybe I didn't make the point well. Personally I would never get airborne in a Robinson.
Re: Robinsons - do they deserve their place?
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:56 am
by TheGreenGoblin
I enjoyed C16's posted video and the underlying humour inherent in it, and as a lowly would be Robinson jockey, scum of the earth, in other words, I feel that there might be some mileage in the old Mrs Robinson lrycs...
And here's to you, Mr. Robinson
The Jesus nut loves you more than you will know
Wo, wo, wo
God bless you please, Mr. Robinson
Heaven holds a place for those who pray
Hey hey hey
Hey hey hey
We'd like to know a little bit about you as it flies
We'd like to help you to learn to help us help ourselves
Look around you, all you see are sympathetic eyes...
Stroll around the heli-pad until you feel at home etc. etc.
Every time I see the Robinson's collective, I will now be apt to think of Anne Bancroft (or should that be bank aloft)...
Re: Robinsons - do they deserve their place?
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:10 am
by G~Man
To throw a semi serious post on this.....
I trained in Robinsons as they were cheap. They had their place.
I also flew for NBC news in the San Francisco Bay Area in a Robinson, I moved small logs, and hay bails....
I have certificate # 11 for the R-44 factory course....flew serial # 7 for 3 months till Frank evoked his recall back in 93.
I have just under 4,000 hours in the Robinson and have not flown in once since 1997, and will NEVER fly one again.
I trained in Robinsons as they were cheap. They had their place.
Precisely why I am flying in a Robinson R44 which, as we know, has a lot more going for it in terms of power, rotor inertia etc, than the R22. If I thought the R44 was a "death trap" I wouldn't fly in it. I may be be mad, but I am not totally crazy!
PS - G~Man, what an evocative photo. The little guys are in awe and I wonder how many went on to become pilots. You "done" good man!
Sounds like an engine problem according to one witness.
Karamea R22.png
I suspect we should follow Mr Ibbotson's son's pragmatic advice... but I am going to comment too!
Cory Ibbotson declined to comment on the accident.
“It’s under investigation. Let’s get the facts to find out what went wrong because something clearly has,” he said.
Stuff can't help themselves though...
The incident is the latest to involve a Robinson helicopter, which have come under increased scrutiny in recent years following a series of crashes for which investigators blamed mast bumping, which occurs when the inner part of a main rotor mechanism and the main rotor drive shaft connect, causing the helicopter to break up in flight.
It is no mystery why a teetering rotor is liable to mast bumping in certain circumstances, although that doesn't look like it happened in this case, and I wager that FD2 is correct in his assessment.
I must admit that I have little time for the generic indictment of Robinson aircraft. The R44 is a very different aircraft to the R22 which definitely is lacking in rotor inertia and doesn't suffer fools gladly (what helicopter does mind you)?
Re: Robinsons - do they deserve their place?
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:11 am
by FD2
Agree GG. Check rides and simulator sessions usually produced 'failures' from the instructor which are slow to happen and/or whose effects are slow in being noticed. The 'real thing' was usually a very fast and sudden twang, of course unexpected, and can lead to problems for the most experienced and competent pilot when it happens at that 'awkward' moment. If he had set himself up for a normal(ish) approach and the engine was playing up he'd probably be in a good position if it failed. We'll find out eventually as he survived, thank goodness, which I wouldn't have expected after looking at the photo.
Re: Robinsons - do they deserve their place?
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:47 pm
by Ex-Ascot
Below are the injury and fatality statistics per the NTSB accident database for each Robinson model aircraft, as of October 11, 2021:
Model R22 – 1008 R22 accidents; 184 of those incidents were fatal; 272 people have died
Model R44 – 549 R44 accidents; 200 of those incidents were fatal; 402 people have died
Model R66 – 39 R66 accidents; 18 of those incidents were fatal; 39 people have died
If you believe that table then the R22 is by far the safest.
A simplistic, and erroneous conclusion not likely to be made by a man of your guile and statistical fluency Boac! Only can only assume you were stirring with the devil's wooden spoon!
Re: Robinsons - do they deserve their place?
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:03 pm
by FD2
Putting heavier blades on the R44 doesn't seem, from those figures, to have made too much difference to the accident rate. Baum Hedland represent accident victims and as ever there's so much more to statistics than these bare figures might indicate. Some of these accidents are plainly pilot error, like flying into buildings, water and other CFIT incidents so the statistics would have to be very carefully examined. I'll never put myself in a Robinson of any size and all I can say is keep your hand very close to the collective at all times GG! With your experience you're not likely to fly into any buildings!!
......I must admit that I have little time for the generic indictment of Robinson aircraft......
When I saw that I decided not to post an appropriate Freddie Mercury music video about this incident in case I caused offence.
Please post the video C16. If we can't use a well chosen music video to make our respective points then what has the world come to!
As always, I know you to be an immensely experienced pilot, whose opinions I hold in the utmost respect, and a good chap too, so whatever you post, even if you are pulling my leg in disagreement, is not going to offend me of all people, who is apt to use videos at the slightest opportunity.
Putting heavier blades on the R44 doesn't seem, from those figures, to have made too much difference to the accident rate. Baum Hedland represent accident victims and as ever there's so much more to statistics than these bare figures might indicate. Some of these accidents are plainly pilot error, like flying into buildings, water and other CFIT incidents so the statistics would have to be very carefully examined. I'll never put myself in a Robinson of any size and all I can say is keep your hand very close to the collective at all times GG! With your experience you're not likely to fly into any buildings!!
Yes indeed FD2. I think many are pilot error. As once pointed out by GG they tend to be flown by pilots under training or with low hours. Cheap to buy, get a PPL(H) and get an egg whisk. Off you go and kill yourself (and others). A millionaire friend of ours bought a decent chopper. He did constant continuity training. Said he was well aware of his inexperience. He wanted to upgrade to a bigger faster chopper but his wife, Jilly, wanted the garden landscaping. He even secured G-ILLY but the garden won.
We have a few down here and Also I am not getting into one. Jet ranger for us but the trouble is with just the two of us it is very expensive. Also you have to pay for the chopper to return to base of course.
all I can say is keep your hand very close to the collective at all times GG! With your experience you're not likely to fly into any buildings!!
I will definitely be primed to get that collective down as you say FD2. As for the rest, I guess I am just as likely to make a mistake as the average pilot but endeavour to avoid hitting buildings whatever I am in!
Re: Robinsons - do they deserve their place?
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:24 am
by Boac
TGG - your interpretation on the stats? (Feel free to use PN's 'Serpentine' abacus, of course), but:
R66: 100% fatality rate
R44: 73%
R22: 27%
