Argentinian Submarine Missing

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Argentinian Submarine Missing

#1 Post by Cacophonix » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:33 am

As flagged up by Boac on the Rotary Nostalgia forum, an Argentinian submarine with 44 souls on board went missing early last Wednesday. It appears that 7 failed satellite communication messages may have been sent from the missing submarine yesterday.

Seven failed satellite calls were detected on Saturday that Argentina’s defence ministry believes could be from submarine that went missing in the south Atlantic three days ago with 44 crew on board.
The attempts – which lasted between four and 36 seconds – “indicate that the crew is trying to re-establish contact” after communications were lost on Wednesday said the navy. The defence ministry said it was working on tracing the location of the calls with an unnamed US company that specialised in satellite communications.

It was not immediately clear what type of calls the ARA San Juan submarine might have tried to make but submarines that are stricken underwater can float a location beacon known as an emergency position indicator radio beacon (EPIRB) to the surface that can then emit emergency signals via satellite.

Earlier on Saturday, navy spokesman Enrique Balbi said the area being searched off the country’s southern Atlantic coast has been doubled as concerns about the fate of the submarine and its crew grew. “We are not discounting any hypothesis,” Balbi said, adding that possibilities to explain the submarine’s disappearance include “a problem with communications” or with its power system.

Argentina's navy searches for missing submarine with 44 crew on board
Read more

Argentina has begun preparing for an underwater rescue while an international effort has also started to locate the missing vessel.

The Argentinian navy lost radio contact with the San Juan after its last scheduled transmission on Wednesday morning. It was on a 10-day voyage from Argentina’s southernmost port of Ushuaia to the naval base at Mar del Plata, 400km (250 miles) south of Buenos Aires.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... lls-search

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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#2 Post by Cacophonix » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:22 pm

The submarine is still missing and believed to be beneath the surface... One's heart goes out to the families of the missing crew...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -any-clues

The hope that arose from seven failed satellite calls detected Saturday morning, which Argentina’s defence ministry at first said could be from the missing submarine, is also dimming fast. The government said Sunday said it cannot confirm that the attempts came from the ARA San Juan.

“Regrettably, we have not yet had any contact with the submarine,” Argentinian navy spokesman Enrique Balbi said on Sunday morning. The satellite call attempts were registered between 9am and 3pm on Saturday, lasting between four and 36 seconds, but there was no voice contact. “There were seven attempts with a very weak signal that failed to connect,” the officer said. “We are trying to squeeze that information to obtain some concrete data and a geolocation.”
...

A total of 13 ships and six aeroplanes are braving strong winds and high waves over an area of 66,000 sq km (25,500 sq miles) more than 400 km (250 miles) east of the bay of San Jorge off the coast of Patagonia in southern Argentina.

The Argentinian navy lost radio contact with the San Juan after its last scheduled transmission on Wednesday morning. It was on a 10-day voyage from Argentina’s southernmost port, Ushuaia, to the naval base at Mar del Plata, 400km (250 miles) south of Buenos Aires.

Argentina’s navy said it was not sure what happened to the submarine or why it lost contact but that it was now convinced the ship was beneath the surface and not adrift on choppy seas, as was previously thought.

...

mong the planes overflying the area are a P-3 Orion plane belonging to Nasa, which has been diverted from a mission in the Antarctic, and a British Hercules C-130 stationed at the nearby Falkland Islands.
In 1982, the UK and Argentina fought a bitter war over the Falkland Islands – known by the latter as Las Malvinas. The Falkland Islands government issued a statement on Saturday supporting Argentina in its search. “The Falkland Islands government extends its sincere hope that the submarine is found swiftly,” the statement said.

The British polar ice patrol ship HMS Protector, equipped with sonar equipment, is also providing assistance.

The US Navy said early on Sunday morning it would send an additional P-8A Poseidon marine patrol plane specialising in anti-submarine warfare with 21 personnel from Jacksonville, Florida, to assist with the search for the German-built ARA San Juan.

Among the 44 crew members is Argentina’s first female submarine officer, 35-year-old Eliana Krawczyk. Her father, Eduardo Krawczyk, said: “We are extremely worried, with little news, waiting for information.”

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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#3 Post by Karearea » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:43 pm

This event has captured my attention; I'm following a twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/hashtag/arasanjuan?f=tweets&vertical=default

and hoping for a safe and happy conclusion for all concerned.
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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#4 Post by Cacophonix » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:36 pm

Thanks for the link Karearea...

Let's hope it has a happy ending. Multiple navies have pledged support and rescue services including the Chileans who have good rescue resources.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=102830

BUENOS AIRES – The Argentine navy has stepped up its search of the South Atlantic for a submarine with 44 crew on board that remains missing two days after its last communication on Wednesday.
ARA San Juan was in the western south Atlantic some 432 kilometers from the Patagonian coast close to the San Jorge Gulf, when it sent its last signal on Wednesday midday, naval spokesman Enrique Balbi said on Friday.

The United States, United Kingdom, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, Peru and South Africa have offered logistics help for the search effort, and the first to join was a NASA aircraft with sophisticated equipment which was about to take off from Ushuaia, Tierra del Fuego to Antarctica.

President Mauricio Macri pledged all the necessary resources to recover the German built submersible with a crew which includes the first submariner woman officer in the Argentine navy. Defense minister Oscar Aguad who was attending a UN security conference in Canada immediately returned to Argentina, to the Mar del Plata submarines’ base, from where search efforts are been coordinated and to talk to the crew’s relatives.

The diesel electric battery powered ARA San Juan was sailing from Ushuaia in Tierra del Fuego to Mar del Plata, a 7 to 8 day travel, depending on weather conditions. The German built submarine was launched in 1983, and incorporated to the Argentine navy in 1985. In 2008/10 it underwent in depth maintenance and refitting in an Argentine government yard.

Balbi said the emergency “combing” operation was formally upgraded to a “search and rescue” on Friday evening (local time) after no visual or radar contact was made with the submarine.

“Detection has been difficult despite the quantity of boats and aircraft [in in the search],” he said, noting that heavy winds and high waves were complicating efforts.

“Obviously, the number of hours that have passed — two days in which there has been no communication — is of note.”

The Navy’s working hypothesis is that the submarine had communication difficulties off the province of Chubut that may have been caused by an electrical outage, Balbi said. Navy protocol would call for the submarine to come to the surface once communication was lost. “We expect that it is on the surface,” Balbi said.

“Without wanting to be alarmist or overdramatic, the facts are that … no form of communications could be established between the vessel and its command, even with the alternative methods that the submarine has.
”What we interpret is that there must have been a serious problem with the communications [infrastructure] or with the electrical supply, cables, antennae or other [onboard] equipment.“

Admiral Gabriel Gonzalez, chief of the Mar del Plata base southeast of Buenos Aires, said the vessel had sufficient food and oxygen.”We have a loss of communications; we are not talking of an emergency,” he said. Relatives of some of the crewmembers were at the base awaiting word of the search.

The search and rescue effort on Friday evening included four navy surface vessels, air force and navy aircraft, plus the US NASA P-3 explorer. Britain has offered the Hercules C 130 stationed in the Falklands, Chile is sending a special all weather day and night survey aircraft and Brazil a submarine rescue vessel, Felinto Perry, K/11.—MercoPress


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... submarine/

The British Navy is stepping up support as well

The Royal Navy has deployed its elite submarine rescue team to join the search for a missing Argentine submarine, after failed satellite calls thought to be from the vessel raised hopes the crew were still alive.
HMS Protector also began scouring the South Atlantic as part of the international hunt for the missing vessel, and HMS Clyde was being diverted from South Georgia.

The Royal Navy said it was flying the Submarine Parachute Assistance Group (SPAG) to the region to join the hunt. The highly trained team of medics, engineers and escape specialists is continuously on six hours notice to go anywhere in the world.


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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#5 Post by CharlieOneSix » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:46 pm

Sorry Caco - pedant mode on - it’s the one and only Royal Navy not the British Navy!
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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#6 Post by Cacophonix » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:47 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:Sorry Caco - pedant mode on - it’s the one and only Royal Navy not the British Navy!


Forgive me CharlieOneSix, me being a bloody foreigner and all! o:-)

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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#7 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:00 am

CharlieOneSix wrote:Sorry Caco - pedant mode on - it’s the one and only Royal Navy not the British Navy!


Didn't think that you would let that one slip by C16 =))

We forgive you Caco.

Of course we step in to help if we can, regardless of nationality. Would the Argies be as willing to help us out? Would we want them to? They would probably claim the submarine as their own.
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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#8 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:01 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
CharlieOneSix wrote:Sorry Caco - pedant mode on - it’s the one and only Royal Navy not the British Navy!


Didn't think that you would let that one slip by C16 =))

We forgive you Caco.

Of course we step in to help if we can, regardless of nationality. Would the Argies be as willing to help us out? Would we want them to? They would probably claim the submarine as their own.


Thank you both for the stiff upper lip reference my faux pas. I thought about it afterwards an realised that there is no way I would ever had said the British Air Force, so why do it with the Royal Navy? Senility perhaps?

A friend's, who lived near what was the old the old Royal Naval Base in Simonstown, old dad (RIP) flew for the Fleet Air Arm, very successfully it seems as he was also exchanged with the yanks for a while flying out in California, picked me up when I assumed he had flown for the RAF. He wouldn't have left me off so lightly for this current exercise in my opening my mouth (or rather tapping my keyboard) to change feet!

My "foreigner" excuse is pretty lame to be honest. Akin to passing the port the wrong way I guess without having the decency to go outside and shoot oneself.

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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#9 Post by ian16th » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:22 am

CharlieOneSix wrote:Sorry Caco - pedant mode on - it’s the one and only Royal Navy not the British Navy!


The 'only' Royal Navy?

What do the Australian's, Canadian's and New Zealander's have?
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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#10 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:33 am

ian16th wrote:
CharlieOneSix wrote:Sorry Caco - pedant mode on - it’s the one and only Royal Navy not the British Navy!


The 'only' Royal Navy?

What do the Australian's, Canadian's and New Zealander's have?


I see trouble ahead! :))

Just as well I haven't said RBAF (Royal British Air Force) anywhere. I might finally be banned from this forum, perhaps in perpetuity!

Interesting though that the SAAF (the oldest Air Force in the world just for the record) never included the Royal despite SA being a (albeit unwillingly for many Afrikaners) British colony although the first pilot in the SAFC was Afrikaans and many Afrikaners fought and flew for the British with great distinction in both World Wars.

The first winged flight in South Africa is thought to have been made around 1875 by John Goodman Household in a primitive glider in the Karkloof district of Natal.The first powered flight is attributed to the French aviator Albert Kimmerling on 28 December 1909 at East London flying a Voisin 1907 biplane. In June 1911 the South African John Weston flew a Weston-Farman for 8.5 minutes, a South African record time for a sustained flight. Demonstrations by Weston followed well into 1912 and at a large number of locations. In December 1911 two visiting aviators, Cecil Compton Patterson flying a Patterson No. 2 Biplane and Evelyn Driver flying a Bleriot biplane, started flying demonstration flights in the Cape and aroused significant public and government interest to the possibilities of powered flight in South Africa. Prompted by the Patterson / Driver displays, General Jan Smuts (Minister of Defence) sent Brig Gen C.F. Beyers (Commandant-General of the Citizen Force) to Britain to observe the 1912 military manoeuvres in Switzerland, Germany, France and England and to report on the viability of using aircraft in military operations. Beyers' response was extremely supportive and encouraging of the establishment of an air corps, particularly for the purpose of aerial scouting. By this time the Patterson / Driver flying syndicate had dissolved and in 1912 Patterson and the Union Defence Force reached an agreement to establish a flying school at Alexandersfontein in Kimberley, known as Paterson's Aviation Syndicate School of Flying to train pilots for the proposed South African Aviation Corps (SAAC). Basic flying training commenced in 1913 with ten students, using a Compton-Paterson biplane and six of the students who completed the basic training were sent to the Central Flying School at RAF Upavon in Great Britain for further training. Lt. Kenneth van der Spuy passed his final examination on 2 June 1914 and was granted the certificate of the Royal Aero Club, becoming South Africa's first qualified military pilot. The others passed a few days later, with five of them eventually qualifying. On qualifying, the Union Defence Force granted permission for these aviators to be seconded to the Royal Flying Corps (RFC).


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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#11 Post by ian16th » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:09 am

Err, SA was NEVER a British Colony!

Various parts of what became the Union of South Africa were colonies, but never the whole country.

When the Union of SA was created it had Dominion status! Just like Canada, Australia and NZ.
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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#12 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:15 am

ian16th wrote:Err, SA was NEVER a British Colony!

Various parts of what became the Union of South Africa were colonies, but never the whole country.

When the Union of SA was created it had Dominion status! Just like Canada, Australia and NZ.


I come from the Cape which is South Africa as far as I am concerned. You are right of course.

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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#13 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:22 am

Nothing against the RCN, RAN or RNZN - but the Royal Navy is the only one which is not defined in its name by its country. I've flown with excellent pilots from both the RCN and RAN - in fact one of my instructors in basic training was a RAN pilot, Pat Vickers, sadly the first RAN helicopter pilot to be killed in Vietnam:

Lt Cmdr Pat Vickers 1935-1968

Back to submarines - in 1973 I was involved on the sidelines in a very small way with the rescue of two men in a midget submarine off Cork in 1973. That was successful after they had been trapped for 3 days so hopefully this present situation will have the same outcome.

Midget submarine rescue 1973
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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#14 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:24 am

Meanwhile the search continues.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/20/ameri ... index.html

The vessel could have suffered some sort of "catastrophic failure," Reed says.

But, he adds, it "could be something minor that has caused them to either be hung up somewhere or they are on the bottom."

As the San Juan is a diesel submarine, not a nuclear-powered one, "it has a limited life underwater," Reed says.

Time is ticking for the 44 submariners on board.

While submarines of this size and class can stay at sea for around a month, "that doesn't mean they have 30 days underwater.

"It's dependent upon the last time they actually recharged their batteries, how long ago they refreshed the air, what's inside the submarine. We just don't know."

If it has sunk but is still intact, they will have about a week to 10 days of oxygen, Peter Layton, a visiting fellow at the Griffith Asia Institute, Griffith University, in Australia says.

How often would the crew usually be in contact?

From a crew comfort point of view the sub would very likely travel submerged around 50 meters (165 feet) below the surface, Layton says, only coming near the surface to "snort" -- replenish its oxygen, recharge the batteries by using the diesel engines, and send radio signals -- around once every 24 hours.

However, it could depend on whether it was a straightforward transit or if the sub was engaging in other operations en route, Euan Graham, director, international security, of the Lowy Institute for International Policy in Sydney told CNN.

"Obviously the Falkland Islands are an intelligence target for Argentina. There is no reason to suggest that it was engaged in this but still a possibility. If so it would need to stay out of detection envelope."


171120143042-argentina-missing-submarine-ara-san-juan-4-exlarge-169.jpg
171120143042-argentina-missing-submarine-ara-san-juan-4-exlarge-169.jpg (45.08 KiB) Viewed 366 times


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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#15 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:30 am

ian16th wrote:
CharlieOneSix wrote:Sorry Caco - pedant mode on - it’s the one and only Royal Navy not the British Navy!


The 'only' Royal Navy?

What do the Australian's, Canadian's and New Zealander's have?


The Royal Australian Navy, The Royal Canadian Navy. There is however only one 'Royal Navy'. Same with The Royal Air Force. The brown jobs don't get 'Royal' only some regiments. One can't trust them all to maintain said standards.
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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#16 Post by ian16th » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:35 am

Cacophonix wrote:
ian16th wrote:Err, SA was NEVER a British Colony!

Various parts of what became the Union of South Africa were colonies, but never the whole country.

When the Union of SA was created it had Dominion status! Just like Canada, Australia and NZ.


I come from the Cape which is South Africa as far as I am concerned. You are right of course.

Caco


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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#17 Post by limeygal » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:30 am

Here you go:
The modern British Army traces back to 1707, with an antecedent in the English Army that was created at the Restoration in 1660. The term "British Army" was adopted in 1707 after the Acts of Union between England and Scotland.[5][6] Although all members of the British Army are expected to swear (or affirm) allegiance to Elizabeth II as their commander-in-chief,[7] the Bill of Rights of 1689 requires parliamentary consent for the Crown to maintain a peacetime standing army; hence the reason it is not called the "Royal Army".[8] Therefore, Parliament approves the Army by passing an Armed Forces Act at least once every five years. The Army is administered by the Ministry of Defence and commanded by the Chief of the General Staff.[9]

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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#18 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:17 pm

The outlook for a positive outcome for the search for the Argentinian submarine and its crew is becoming bleaker!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ical-phase

The search for a missing Argentinian submarine with 44 crew aboard has entered a “critical phase” as the vessel is fast approaching a probable limit of its oxygen reserves, the country’s navy said on Monday.
Five days after the last radio contact with the ARA San Juan, weather conditions in the area of the South Atlantic where it went missing are too rough for it to remain above surface, and the outlook for the crew appears increasingly bleak.

Naval spokesman Enrique Balbi told reporters this Monday that although the vessel has enough food and fuel to survive 90 days on the surface, it only had enough oxygen to survive for seven days underwater.
Balbi also speculated that the submarine could have already been traveling underwater due to the rough conditions on the surface when it last made contact on Wednesday morning.

In further bad news, Balbi also confirmed that seven failed satellite phone calls detected by navy listening posts on Saturday morning were not from the submarine.

“None of the communications on Saturday were from the San Juan,” Balbi told reporters. News of the attempted calls had raised hopes when they were disclosed on Sunday, but they turned out to be from another ship broadcasting on the same frequency employed by the San Juan, Balbi said.

The disheartening news came on the same morning the submarine had been scheduled to arrive at Mar del Plata naval base on its 10-day journey from Argentina’s southernmost city of Ushuaia.

“This phase is critical,” said Balbi. The submarine “should have arrived in Mar del Plata on Sunday or today Monday if the problem had only been a communications breakdown.”

A large number of international ships and aeroplanes, including a British polar exploration vessel, are braving strong winds and six-metre high waves in the area off the coast of Patagonia where the submarine was lost.
The rough conditions were clearly shown in footage posted online by the Argentinian navy on Monday. “These were the meteorological conditions and the state of the sea yesterday in the search and rescue operations zone,” the navy tweeted.

The US navy has also joined the search, deploying unmanned submersibles and aeroplanes to the South Atlantic.


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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#19 Post by FD2 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:09 am

There's so little information in the press about it, but then the Argentinian authorities seem to have very little information to pass on. It has been reported that they were ordered to proceed immediately to their base in Mar del Plata after reporting a battery fault. If I remember correctly from a couple of conventional sub day trips (or was it 'Das Boot'?), the big trouble is the production of chlorine gas from damaged batteries. I hope not and let's pray or cross our fingers that they can locate them soon, they are at or above a rescuable depth, and have the appropriate escape kit.

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Re: Argentinian Submarine Missing

#20 Post by Cacophonix » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:30 pm

Pretty bleak outlook now for the survival of this crew as they come towards the end of the 7th day with the likelihood that oxygen supplies will be running low.

No news seems to be forthcoming despite the intensive search.

It must an appalling time for families, friends and relatives of the crew.

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