Argentinian Submarine Missing

[Cacophonix]

An RAF aircraft has landed on Argentinian soil for the first time since the Falklands War to assist in the search for a missing submarine.

The ARA San Juan disappeared 268 miles off Argentina's southern Atlantic coast last Wednesday and is understood to have had a seven-day supply of oxygen.

As part of the UK's effort to help in the search for the Argentinian sub and its crew, an RAF plane carrying equipment and submarine specialists was dispatched to Comodoro Rivadavia.

On its arrival in the southern Argentinian city, the crew were received by an Argentinian navy chief.

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It marks the first time since the Falklands conflict in 1982 that an RAF plane has landed in Argentina.

Jorge Faurie, of Argentina's foreign ministry, said: "If there is some extra still available resource, no matter where it comes from, we have to resort to them because of them possibly depends on the location of our compatriots.

"Here there is no interest of each other. It is the interest of Argentines and of our 44 compatriots."

The Argentinian navy says the search has entered a "critical phase" due to the lack of oxygen in the ARA San Juan.

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https://news.sky.com/story/submarine-hu ... s-11139053

Argentinians or not they are humans and pilots and just want to have a look and chat about the aircraft like any other pilot would! Good to see the RAF showing the diplomatic flag so well while helping out in the search!

Caco

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Just as well they got rid of the Nimrod.

[Boac]

Ouch.....

[Cacophonix]

Britain has had to call on the French to hunt submarines from the air, friendly or otherwise, in the last few years...

French patrol planes are scouring the seas off Scotland for a Russian submarine after Britain was forced to call on allies for help because it has scrapped its own sub-hunting aircraft.

A French Atlantique 2 maritime patrol plane has been searching for the submarine for at least 10 days, since the vessel was detected north of Scotland.

Aircraft carriers without catapults (or aircraft to catapult for that matter)... destroyers with turbines that can't produce enough electrical power run in tropical waters due to intercooler issues... the recent litany of ignomy is a long one...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 38646.html

Caco

[Cacophonix]

A US Navy plane has detected an unidentified object near the area where a missing Argentinian submarine sent its last signal, according to a Reuters witness on board the plane.

The object could not be identified and the crew emphasised that it was not known if it was connected to the vessel.

The agonising wait for news of the whereabouts of the ARA San Juan has intensified in recent days as fears grow that the oxygen supply on board could be running low.

Another spurious piece of noise in the quest for the missing submarine!/ One hopes not!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 71616.html

Caco

[Boac]

Reports on the BBC of a 'loud noise' heard just after the last contact.

[FD2]

Battery problems are taken very seriously by submariners:

USS Bonefish fire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bonefish_(SS-582)

USS Flier: https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Btr ... on&f=false

INS Sindhurakshak: http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai/fi ... 7LpXI.html

There seems to have been a lot of confusing information about ARA San Juan over the last weeks or so - I can't make out if it's poor reporting or lack of information from the authorities. If there was an explosion that was detectable around the world then sadly I think they're all gonners.

[Cacophonix]

The Argentinian Navy's less than stellar communication process and apparent tardiness in responding to this unfolding crisis (now clearly a tragedy) has created a great deal of public anger.

The families of the crew of a missing Argentinian navy submarine have reacted with grief and then anger to the possibility that an explosion hit the submarine around the time it sent its last signal on 15 November.

An abnormal sound detected in the South Atlantic ocean was “consistent with an explosion”, the navy spokesman Enrique Balbi said. The navy did not have enough information to say what the cause of the explosion could have been or whether the vessel – the ARA San Juan – might have been attacked, he said.

Relatives of the submarine’s 44 crew members, camped out at a naval base in the coastal city of Mar del Plata, had been largely optimistic before Thursday’s announcement, which prompted cries of anguish and calls for authorities to be held to account.

Footage of relatives collapsing to the pavement as uniformed navy servicemen embraced each other was broadcast on live television, sending shockwaves across Argentina.

As hope fades for a successful outcome in the search for the missing submarine questions need to be answered.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... y-confirms

Caco

[Cacophonix]

Here is a photo of the missing Captain and the helmsman of the San Juan in happier times.

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Caco

[Cacophonix]

ARGENTINA'S Government only found out about the navy's missing submarine after reading about it in the press, its defence minister has revealed.

The revelations come as President Mauricio Macri blasted naval commanders over their handling of the crisis of the sub's disappearance.

Defence Minister Oscar Aguad didn't even find out about the “anomalies” reported by the commander of the submarine until 48 hours after the vessel's last contact, sources told Argentinian newspaper La Nación.

Mr Aguad has called 40 inquiries into why the ARA San Juan has gone missing and President Macri declared he wants to remove the head of the Navy, Marcelo Srur.

The families of crew members have hit out at the government questioning why the crew were allowed out in an ageing vessel.

...

A huge sea and air hunt is being conducted for the San Juan submarine after it went missing last week with 44 members of crew on board.

Yesterday navy spokesman Enrique Balbi revealed that an abnormal sound was detected in the South Atlantic ocean “consistent with an explosion” near to where the vessel was last detected.

A huge scale investigation is being launched into the disappearance, and the President plans to remove the head of the Navy, Marcelo Srur.

He has hit out at Mr Srur after his distrust of the help offered by Chile, Brazil and Britain delayed the search and rescue mission.

Argentinian news site Infobae reports Defence Minister Aguad demanded that Major Srur present a comprehensive report on the circumstances that led to the disappearance of ARA San Juan.

He wants to know if the ship had its original German batteries, why it wasn’t accompanied by corvette warships, if it was immediately ordered to return to Buenos Aires, and why the fact the submarine had lost contact with Naval control was kept from him for 48 hours.

The San Juan was traditionally escorted by two ‘coveted’ warships when carrying out illegal fishing controls, and relatives have questioned why the submarine wasn't accompanied on this journey.

Enrique Balbi, the navy spokesman, said the submarine "not being an emergency, did not have to be accompanied by two surface units".

From the Express

Caco

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The underwater noise was, elsewhere, reported as being detected by both a nuclear watchdog and the US Navy. The info is therefore pretty reliable. Does not look good.

[FD2]

I wonder why it took the 'Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty Organisation' so long to report the probable noise of an explosion to the Argentinian authorities. I guess it may take some time to correlate all the evidence and come to the conclusion it was an explosion but not as long as it seems to have taken in this case. Likewise if the USN has some sort of SOSUS type system in the south Atlantic, again it has taken a long time to conclude it was a probable explosion. The 'explosive' noise coupled with the lack of a locator buoy looks like bad news for the San Juan. The naval authorities in Argentina also seem to have handled the situation poorly - no doubt someone will get the blame for the lack of government defence spending and it won't be a politician!

[Cacophonix]

Argentina has called off the rescue operation for its missing submarine 15 days after a reported explosion apparently sent it to the bottom of the Atlantic ocean off the coast of Patagonia.
“No one will be rescued,” said navy captain Enrique Balbi, who has been acting as official spokesperson for the rescue effort. Nonetheless, the search operation for the ARA San Juan would continue in waters of up to 500 metres deep, he added.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... cue-effort

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Caco

[Capetonian]

Very sad, it must be an awful way to die.

I have been to Argentina a few times and always enjoyed my visits. They are fine and cultured people, although rather prone to exaggeration and pomposity, but they don't take themselves too seriously. Some of the best food and wine in the world.

Despite having a British passport and visiting before and after the Falklands war, I was always well treated and usually got upgraded at some very good hotels in BUE, and was given free air tickets to see a lot of the huge and beautiful country.

[Rwy in Sight]

The local navy organized some kind of open day to celebrate its patron saint. One of the ships we could visit was supposed to be a submarine which did not appear. However at the gate of the event was a submariner. He said something very strange should have happened but only the crew would know about it. What was most amazing though a gentleman without any knowledge about navy matters stated the submarine was meant to be destroyed by some superior powers.

[Cacophonix]

As the time drags on more and as more snippets of information emanate from the Argentinian Naval High Command, the suspicion, that they have a pretty good idea what happened to the San Juan plus the fact they probably have a fix on the general area where she went down, grows by the day. To say that they have been economical with the truth to the public and the grieving relatives would be an understatement! One has to question their competence and their ability not to have botched any possible rescue mission while it was still possible.

In the meanwhile a sonar image that might have been the missing submarine has been identified as a trawler.

A blurry image taken by an unmanned Russian submersible raised hopes that it could be the Argentine submarine that went missing on 15 November with 44 crew members aboard.

The image was given “priority” for review on Saturday because it showed an object about 60m long located at 477m (1,565 feet) below sea level. The ARA San Juan is 66m long.

But after the image was “visually verified”, Argentina’s navy spokesman Enrique Balbi confirmed later on Saturday that it was not the submarine but instead a sunken fishing vessel.

The navy has said the vessel’s captain reported that water entered the snorkel and caused one of the submarine’s batteries to short circuit. An explosion was later detected around the time and place where the San Juan last made contact.

A serious leak of that sort was clearly not "routine" (and if it was the argument for incompetence is thus proven) as it could have resulted in a hydrogen or chlorine build up in the submarine with the potential for an explosion in the former case. Such a leak may also have caused short circuits that could have crippled the power and control systems or even caused a fire. All that notwithstanding, that report highlights the fact that they must have had a position fix before the submarine was estimated to have gone missing.

Incompetence or cover up (or both)?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... -says-navy

Caco

[Sisemen]

Highly unlikely given the circumstances that are out there but one can’t help but wonder whether some sub surface shenanigans were happening with another sub that may or may not have been keeping tabs on it?

[Cacophonix]

Sub on sub shenanigans or an evasive move that went wrong or the need to keep radio silence may have been a factor here tis true!

Caco

[Cacophonix]

The submarine has still not been found at the time of posting and the USA has withdrawn from the search while the Russians continue to support the Argentinian Navy in the quest to find the missing craft. In the interim an Admiral has been sacked and in the last 48 hours Naval bases have been raided in a search for maintenance documentation. Some 'experts' have noted that the submarine exceeded its scheduled permitted operational time between overhaul before it disappeared although this might have been a manufacturers advisory and not a legal requirement.

Federal police officers raided naval bases and other buildings in Argentina on Friday as part of an investigation into the disappearance of a submarine with 44 crew members.

The raids at the sub's home base in the coastal city of Mar del Plata, in Buenos Aires and near the city of Bahia Blanca, were ordered by Federal Judge Marta Yanez, who told local TN television that she wants to review documents focused on the condition of the vessel before it began its journey. She also said that she wants to look into possible faults in the midlife refit of the submarine.

A blast occurred near the time and place where the ARA San Juan went missing Nov. 15 as it was sailing from the extreme southern port of Ushuaia to Mar del Plata. Argentina gave up hope of finding survivors, but the navy has continued searching for the vessel.

The German-built diesel-electric TR-1700 class submarine was commissioned in the mid-80's and was most recently refitted between 2008 and 2014. During the $12 million retrofitting, the vessel was cut in half and had its engines and batteries replaced.

Experts say refits can be difficult because they involve integrating systems produced by different manufacturers, and even the tiniest mistake during the cutting phase can put the safety of the ship and crew at risk.
The navy says that the captain reported on Nov. 15 that water entered the snorkel and caused one of the sub's batteries to short-circuit. The captain later communicated that it had been contained.

Some hours later, an explosion was detected near the time and place where the San Juan was last heard from. The navy says the blast could have been caused by a "concentration of hydrogen" triggered by the battery problem reported by the captain.

President Mauricio Macri has promised a full investigation, and the government recently dismissed the head of its navy as part of the probe.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... e-52635391

Caco

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Having just been boning up on batteries, the short circuit is bound to have produced some hydrogen. The concentration required for a possible explosion is 4%. However, subs have special ventilation equipment for just this reason.
USS Cochino was lost in 1949 after seawater entered through the snorkel and short-circuited the batteries. A description of that accident is here:
http://ussnautilus.org/blog/uss-cochino ... sk-ss-426/
The sequence of events is only known because USS Tusk was in company with USS Cochino, and managed to rescue most of Cochino's crew. The executive summary is that a lot of things can go wrong very quickly, beyond the ability of any crew to cope.

The French have also lost 2 boats, and nearly a third, to the same cause. More here
https://gentleseas.blogspot.ca/2017/11/ ... eries.html

It's quite possible this accident was nobody's fault, but I would be very surprised if the government didn't feel the need to find a scapegoat or two, especially since otherwise the spotlight would turn on that government for its general defence policies and expenditure. XV230, anyone?