Yes, opened it it up a lot and it was great to see a fully British team on the podium.4mastacker wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:39 pmI thought it was a better race after those two had their coming together.
Formula One
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Re: Formula One
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Re: Formula One
I thought Vercrashie momentarily glanced at the Duke of Woke as he walked away, saw he was still trying to back out from under Vercrashie's car and carried on because the DoW was still alive.
It's always my fault - SWMBO
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Re: Formula One
Wouldn't it be a fillip for F1 if the arrogant Kaaskop and his dour Stevie Wonder impersonator opponent were bested by McLaren,Ricciardo and Norris!
Wouldn't it be lovely, wouldn't it be wonderful...!
Wouldn't it be lovely, wouldn't it be wonderful...!
Though you remain
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Your destination remains
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Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."
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Re: Formula One
I thought that was the lead to one of your store of musical video clips.
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Re: Formula One
It was...Pontius Navigator wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:43 amI thought that was the lead to one of your store of musical video clips.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
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To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."
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Re: Formula One
Another idiotic decision by Mercedes. Wrong tyres.
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Re: Formula One
Strange how they changed from a class of their own last year to just good among equals this year.
Skewered by the rules or the others upped their game.
Skewered by the rules or the others upped their game.
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Re: Formula One
"Oh look how fast everyone else else is going on xxx tyres, let's pull Hamilton in and put him on yyy tyres."
"Oh Hamiltons going to win but his tyres MIGHT not last, let's pull him in for a tyre change so he can go out again in 5th place and lose a podium place."
"Oh Hamiltons going to win but his tyres MIGHT not last, let's pull him in for a tyre change so he can go out again in 5th place and lose a podium place."
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Re: Formula One
Maybe they are being paid by Liberty Media to lose! I mean how many times can Mercedes be seen to win the championship?Pontius Navigator wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:43 amStrange how they changed from a class of their own last year to just good among equals this year.
Skewered by the rules or the others upped their game.
Contrive a feud with the Kaaskop, get a couple of the others into the mix, and let one of two of them win as well. All good for TV viewing numbers. Keeps the punters happy and keeps the sheckels rolling in! Follow the trail of money and Swiss bank account transactions to see where the money is going. You will see!
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."
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Re: Formula One
It's a bit of both. The rule changes around the floor and rear diffuser etc. affected the teams that had a "Low Rake" philosophy much more than the teams that had a "High Rake" philosophy therefore the likes of Mercedes, Aston Martin, Ferrari lost out on downforce against Red Bull, Torro Rossso, Mclaren, Alpine etc.Pontius Navigator wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:43 amStrange how they changed from a class of their own last year to just good among equals this year.
Skewered by the rules or the others upped their game.
With that and coming to the end of the rules where bunching of the field is normal, engines at the peak of development etc.
It'll be different next year, new concept for the overall design best solution will win, could be any one of them but regrettably money will probably rule.
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Re: Formula One
I had only watched F1 until this year.
Being home all the time, especially weekends (mostly worked Thursday - Sunday) I have begun watching more closely even though to watch live like today races start quite early (5 AM).
They were talking about the hybrid powerplants of which I had no knowledge of, so The Google Machine was kind enough to help enlighten me.
Here is a good explanation of the three systems.
Hybrid F1 power: how does it work?
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/hybrid/ho ... ine-works/
F1, they say is the pinnacle of motorsport, using the most advanced and expensive means to create the race car. Through its history F1 has used technology to boost the output from relatively small engines. For 2014 the FIA introduced a new breed of power unit into F1, hugely complex and notoriously hard to master. The current combustion engine and hybrid systems boast a 1000hp output but remain unpopular in some circles due to the lack of exhaust noise and costs. Perhaps these units are misunderstood, as they truly are incredible pieces of engineering.
By the end of 2013, F1 cars were propelled by a 2.4l V8 engine with a simple hybrid system. A peak output of around 850hp was typical, although the engines were restricted in their technology, rpm and lifespan. As part of a reboot of F1 technology they were replaced with a totally new breed of engine.
The current engine formula is in service until at least until 2022. In summary, there’s a small internal combustion engine – a 1600cc V6 that’s turbocharged and features direct fuel injection. While this might be a recipe for a return to the eighties high boost 1500hp engines, the engine is instead capped by a fuel flow meter and the giddy heights of the mid-2000s 20,000rpm V8s is kept at bay by the fuel flow limit and a max rev limit of just 15,000rpm.
Allied to the combustion engine are two hybrid systems, one recovered kinetic energy of the car under braking (ERS-K) and another recovers the kinetic energy of the turbo charger, although in typical confusing F1 parlance, this is a heat recovery and the moniker applied is H for eat, so this is termed ERS-H.
Combined, these technologies allow an F1 driver to have around 1000hp at the pedal whenever it’s needed around a lap, with a little extra available for qualifying. Despite this huge output the race car burns just 110kg of fuel in the race (less than 135 litres), a third less than with the last of the V8’s.
In terms of power, the ERS system is capped at 161hp (120kw), so the V6 engine then produces nearly 850hp despite its lean fuel supply.
Part 2 to follow.
Website has good illustrations.
PP
Being home all the time, especially weekends (mostly worked Thursday - Sunday) I have begun watching more closely even though to watch live like today races start quite early (5 AM).
They were talking about the hybrid powerplants of which I had no knowledge of, so The Google Machine was kind enough to help enlighten me.
Here is a good explanation of the three systems.
Hybrid F1 power: how does it work?
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/hybrid/ho ... ine-works/
F1, they say is the pinnacle of motorsport, using the most advanced and expensive means to create the race car. Through its history F1 has used technology to boost the output from relatively small engines. For 2014 the FIA introduced a new breed of power unit into F1, hugely complex and notoriously hard to master. The current combustion engine and hybrid systems boast a 1000hp output but remain unpopular in some circles due to the lack of exhaust noise and costs. Perhaps these units are misunderstood, as they truly are incredible pieces of engineering.
By the end of 2013, F1 cars were propelled by a 2.4l V8 engine with a simple hybrid system. A peak output of around 850hp was typical, although the engines were restricted in their technology, rpm and lifespan. As part of a reboot of F1 technology they were replaced with a totally new breed of engine.
The current engine formula is in service until at least until 2022. In summary, there’s a small internal combustion engine – a 1600cc V6 that’s turbocharged and features direct fuel injection. While this might be a recipe for a return to the eighties high boost 1500hp engines, the engine is instead capped by a fuel flow meter and the giddy heights of the mid-2000s 20,000rpm V8s is kept at bay by the fuel flow limit and a max rev limit of just 15,000rpm.
Allied to the combustion engine are two hybrid systems, one recovered kinetic energy of the car under braking (ERS-K) and another recovers the kinetic energy of the turbo charger, although in typical confusing F1 parlance, this is a heat recovery and the moniker applied is H for eat, so this is termed ERS-H.
Combined, these technologies allow an F1 driver to have around 1000hp at the pedal whenever it’s needed around a lap, with a little extra available for qualifying. Despite this huge output the race car burns just 110kg of fuel in the race (less than 135 litres), a third less than with the last of the V8’s.
In terms of power, the ERS system is capped at 161hp (120kw), so the V6 engine then produces nearly 850hp despite its lean fuel supply.
Part 2 to follow.
Website has good illustrations.
PP
Re: Formula One
F1 Hybrid Part 2
Formula 1 combustion technology
The obvious way to make power with a race engine is to rev as high as possible, if not then run lots of boost. However, the 2014 PU rules were written to prevent just these sorts of techniques, by applying a fuel flow regulation. There simply isn’t the fuel available to the engine to spin past 12,500 rpm or allow huge amount of boost.
For 2014 the manufacturers had to work out how to make the engine produce power with a paucity of fuel. What’s more the chemical make-up of the fuel was also restricted, so simply making rocket fuel, as was so successful with the early eighties turbos, was not possible either. Running lean means the engine is on the verge of knock, running too lean will eventually break the engine. Most manufacturers played with legal additives to reduce this effect, one of which being Ferrocene, an iron-based compound that literally made the insides of the exhaust pipe look rust red.
Mercedes, meanwhile, had found a little silver bullet: pre-chamber ignition. In a normal combustion chamber the spark plug ignites the fuel\air mix and the flame created spreads outwards to the edge of the chamber burning all the fuel air mix in the process. This is fine when there is enough fuel to mix in the right ratio throughout the combustion chamber. When there isn’t its hard to get full combustion.
Mercedes trick splits the fuel/air mix into two places; the main combustion chamber has a weak fuel/air mix, but a richer mix is held within a small chamber around the spark plug. With this pre-chamber set up, the plug ignites the rich mix. As this expands, it’s directed through small orifices between the pre-chamber and into the combustion chamber below, these jets of flame fully ignite even the weak mix for full combustion.
Hybrid F1 combustion tech
With this pre-chamber technology Mercedes had the jump on the opposition in 2014, it took time for their rivals to catch up and they have held the upper hand all the way to 2019.
In terms of packaging the combustion engine, turbo and hybrid systems, there are two basic layouts. Already the rules define the engine’s mounting bolt positions, ‘V’ angle and max piston size and spacing. Restricted by the basic architecture of the engine, only the freedom of the packaging of a single turbo above the engine and along its centreline was available. It made sense to package the turbo at the rear of the engine, keeping the turbine’s heat away from the inlet plenum and fuel tank area at the front of the engine. Although this did give some headaches for routing the cooling pipes from the compressor to the intercooler in the sidepod.
Taking a non-conventional approach was Mercedes’ mantra, so they developed a unique set up. Wanting a compact intercooler installation of a front mounted turbo and the reduced thermal impact of a rear mounted turbo, they used both. The conventional turbo assembly is split, the hot exhaust driven turbine at the back of the engine and the cooler compressor at the front near the sidepods. The two parts joined by a long shaft running through the ‘V’ of the engine. This shaft would be the key reason for not taking this approach, the difference in speeding up and down of the two separate units, creates huge torsional loads in the connecting shaft. This meant either the shaft was very stiff and heavy to transfer the loads. The route Mercedes took was to run a flexible shaft, the twist along its axis taking up the difference in the inertia of the two impellers. Renault and Ferrari started and retained conventional rear mounted turbos, while Honda joined with a solution more like Mercedes, later developing into something much closer to the initial Mercedes split turbo design.
Hybrid F1 turbo tech
Along with turbo placement, charge air cooling is split between the teams. As the turbo compressor pressurises the air, the air heats up. Teams will want cooler denser air going into the combustion chamber, so the air will need to pass through a heat exchanger to cool it. For this an intercooler is used, two types are employed in F1. Most people will recognise the air-to-air intercooler, working just like a radiator the hot compressed air inside the core is cooled by colder ambient air passing outside. These are simple and light but do take a lot of space up within the sidepods, which is bad for the all important aerodynamics of the car. A few teams have run a different type of intercooler, a water-to-air type. Now the compressed air inside the core is cooled by water outside. This gives slightly less cooling, but is more consistent, as its less affected by the cars speed (as there’s less air passing through the sidepod) especially at the critical moments before the race start. However, the water in the jacket around the intercooler needs cooling in a separate water radiator. This makes for a heavier and more complex set up, but the water radiator takes less sidepod space, so it’s an aero gain over the air-to-air set up.
Only Ferrari and Mercedes have continually employed the water to air system, albeit Lotus did run the set up for one year in 2014. Their greatest rival, Red Bull, is able to maintain a tiny sidepod despite a large air-to-air intercooler in each sidepod.
With the right: fuel blend, combustion technique, packaging and cooling, the engine puts out some 530hp per litre. Even with less fuel flow and cubic capacity, the current combustion engine creates more horsepower than the old V8 engines it replaced.
F1 hybrid technology
Having two hybrid systems on the car, makes for most of the complication in the current power unit. Although broken down it is simpler to understand, based on the same tech as hybrid/electric road cars and even similar to toy remote control cars. There’s a Battery (ES-Energy Store), Motor Generator Unit (MGU) and Control Electronics (CE) to link the two.
MGU is a permanent-magnet brushless AC electric motor. It will both power the car as it deploys the stored energy, or it can work as a generator to put energy back into the battery. The battery is a pack of Li-ion cells, that are capable of rapidly deploying or storing lots of energy to the MGU. In between these two is the Control Electronic unit, which converts the AC electric of the MGU to the DC of the battery.
Cycling the electricity through each of these devices creates heat so each element requires liquid cooling – the FIA mandated dielectric fluid for the battery – to prevent risk of electric shock should it be damaged, while the more efficient water/glycol is typically used for the MGU and CE. So, both cooling systems need pumps and radiators to be packaged within the engine bay.
Given the same basic architecture, the two hybrid systems operate quite differently. Taking the simpler ERS-K first. The MGU is geared to the front of the engine’s crankshaft, in this position the unit can both drive and be driven by the engine. When deploying energy, the electric from the battery passes through the CE and into the MGU. This applies 161hp through the drivetrain to help accelerate the car.
Lessons from this greater power application have been learnt since 2014. In early testing in the power unit’s first year saw problems with the shafts and gears breaking under the sudden torque release from the MGU. Since then the manufacturers have found gentler ways to apply the torque and created a twisting shaft between MGU and the engine to absorb the spikes in power delivery.
In its reverse application the ERS-K recovers energy under braking. As the driver brakes, the ECU software switches the MGU into generator mode, which sees the MGU spun by the drivetrain and in doing so creates and sends electricity to the battery. The drag this generating creates ‘brakes’ the drivetrain, to the extent where the rear brakes are hardly used at lower speeds.
PP
Formula 1 combustion technology
The obvious way to make power with a race engine is to rev as high as possible, if not then run lots of boost. However, the 2014 PU rules were written to prevent just these sorts of techniques, by applying a fuel flow regulation. There simply isn’t the fuel available to the engine to spin past 12,500 rpm or allow huge amount of boost.
For 2014 the manufacturers had to work out how to make the engine produce power with a paucity of fuel. What’s more the chemical make-up of the fuel was also restricted, so simply making rocket fuel, as was so successful with the early eighties turbos, was not possible either. Running lean means the engine is on the verge of knock, running too lean will eventually break the engine. Most manufacturers played with legal additives to reduce this effect, one of which being Ferrocene, an iron-based compound that literally made the insides of the exhaust pipe look rust red.
Mercedes, meanwhile, had found a little silver bullet: pre-chamber ignition. In a normal combustion chamber the spark plug ignites the fuel\air mix and the flame created spreads outwards to the edge of the chamber burning all the fuel air mix in the process. This is fine when there is enough fuel to mix in the right ratio throughout the combustion chamber. When there isn’t its hard to get full combustion.
Mercedes trick splits the fuel/air mix into two places; the main combustion chamber has a weak fuel/air mix, but a richer mix is held within a small chamber around the spark plug. With this pre-chamber set up, the plug ignites the rich mix. As this expands, it’s directed through small orifices between the pre-chamber and into the combustion chamber below, these jets of flame fully ignite even the weak mix for full combustion.
Hybrid F1 combustion tech
With this pre-chamber technology Mercedes had the jump on the opposition in 2014, it took time for their rivals to catch up and they have held the upper hand all the way to 2019.
In terms of packaging the combustion engine, turbo and hybrid systems, there are two basic layouts. Already the rules define the engine’s mounting bolt positions, ‘V’ angle and max piston size and spacing. Restricted by the basic architecture of the engine, only the freedom of the packaging of a single turbo above the engine and along its centreline was available. It made sense to package the turbo at the rear of the engine, keeping the turbine’s heat away from the inlet plenum and fuel tank area at the front of the engine. Although this did give some headaches for routing the cooling pipes from the compressor to the intercooler in the sidepod.
Taking a non-conventional approach was Mercedes’ mantra, so they developed a unique set up. Wanting a compact intercooler installation of a front mounted turbo and the reduced thermal impact of a rear mounted turbo, they used both. The conventional turbo assembly is split, the hot exhaust driven turbine at the back of the engine and the cooler compressor at the front near the sidepods. The two parts joined by a long shaft running through the ‘V’ of the engine. This shaft would be the key reason for not taking this approach, the difference in speeding up and down of the two separate units, creates huge torsional loads in the connecting shaft. This meant either the shaft was very stiff and heavy to transfer the loads. The route Mercedes took was to run a flexible shaft, the twist along its axis taking up the difference in the inertia of the two impellers. Renault and Ferrari started and retained conventional rear mounted turbos, while Honda joined with a solution more like Mercedes, later developing into something much closer to the initial Mercedes split turbo design.
Hybrid F1 turbo tech
Along with turbo placement, charge air cooling is split between the teams. As the turbo compressor pressurises the air, the air heats up. Teams will want cooler denser air going into the combustion chamber, so the air will need to pass through a heat exchanger to cool it. For this an intercooler is used, two types are employed in F1. Most people will recognise the air-to-air intercooler, working just like a radiator the hot compressed air inside the core is cooled by colder ambient air passing outside. These are simple and light but do take a lot of space up within the sidepods, which is bad for the all important aerodynamics of the car. A few teams have run a different type of intercooler, a water-to-air type. Now the compressed air inside the core is cooled by water outside. This gives slightly less cooling, but is more consistent, as its less affected by the cars speed (as there’s less air passing through the sidepod) especially at the critical moments before the race start. However, the water in the jacket around the intercooler needs cooling in a separate water radiator. This makes for a heavier and more complex set up, but the water radiator takes less sidepod space, so it’s an aero gain over the air-to-air set up.
Only Ferrari and Mercedes have continually employed the water to air system, albeit Lotus did run the set up for one year in 2014. Their greatest rival, Red Bull, is able to maintain a tiny sidepod despite a large air-to-air intercooler in each sidepod.
With the right: fuel blend, combustion technique, packaging and cooling, the engine puts out some 530hp per litre. Even with less fuel flow and cubic capacity, the current combustion engine creates more horsepower than the old V8 engines it replaced.
F1 hybrid technology
Having two hybrid systems on the car, makes for most of the complication in the current power unit. Although broken down it is simpler to understand, based on the same tech as hybrid/electric road cars and even similar to toy remote control cars. There’s a Battery (ES-Energy Store), Motor Generator Unit (MGU) and Control Electronics (CE) to link the two.
MGU is a permanent-magnet brushless AC electric motor. It will both power the car as it deploys the stored energy, or it can work as a generator to put energy back into the battery. The battery is a pack of Li-ion cells, that are capable of rapidly deploying or storing lots of energy to the MGU. In between these two is the Control Electronic unit, which converts the AC electric of the MGU to the DC of the battery.
Cycling the electricity through each of these devices creates heat so each element requires liquid cooling – the FIA mandated dielectric fluid for the battery – to prevent risk of electric shock should it be damaged, while the more efficient water/glycol is typically used for the MGU and CE. So, both cooling systems need pumps and radiators to be packaged within the engine bay.
Given the same basic architecture, the two hybrid systems operate quite differently. Taking the simpler ERS-K first. The MGU is geared to the front of the engine’s crankshaft, in this position the unit can both drive and be driven by the engine. When deploying energy, the electric from the battery passes through the CE and into the MGU. This applies 161hp through the drivetrain to help accelerate the car.
Lessons from this greater power application have been learnt since 2014. In early testing in the power unit’s first year saw problems with the shafts and gears breaking under the sudden torque release from the MGU. Since then the manufacturers have found gentler ways to apply the torque and created a twisting shaft between MGU and the engine to absorb the spikes in power delivery.
In its reverse application the ERS-K recovers energy under braking. As the driver brakes, the ECU software switches the MGU into generator mode, which sees the MGU spun by the drivetrain and in doing so creates and sends electricity to the battery. The drag this generating creates ‘brakes’ the drivetrain, to the extent where the rear brakes are hardly used at lower speeds.
PP
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Re: Formula One
Heard them mention today that one crash was 50g.Pontius Navigator wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:22 amI wonder what the G force is when they go from Mach 0.25 to zilch in 50 yards?
Can't do the brain box much good.
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Re: Formula One
Chuck all that out and use a 427cu hemi head V8, naturally aspirated. Sounds great.
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Re: Formula One
Or even with a blower.....
Re: Formula One
1.6L plus electrics = 1,000 HP.
Imagine if the only limit was displacement with no limits on fuel composition, RPM, boost, etc.
PP
Imagine if the only limit was displacement with no limits on fuel composition, RPM, boost, etc.
PP
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Re: Formula One
Once again Mercedes 'strategists' sabotage Hamilton's podium chances. Utterly useless.
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Re: Formula One
Not entirely fair *OFSO*.
Mercedes 'strategists' called Him in on lap 42 so with 16 laps still to do, he refused.
They tried again on lap 43, Hamilton did not see the need.
He finally accepted his times were increasing and accepted the stop, too late.
6 + 6 = 12
Mercedes 'strategists' called Him in on lap 42 so with 16 laps still to do, he refused.
They tried again on lap 43, Hamilton did not see the need.
He finally accepted his times were increasing and accepted the stop, too late.
6 + 6 = 12
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Re: Formula One
I think he has calmed down since the tyre suppliers have examined his old tyres and told him they wouldn't have lasted to the end of the race.