The seven seas

General Chit Chat
Message
Author
Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: The seven seas

#21 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:07 am

BOAC, in short, no. I had to get hold of all the nav logs, get the correct sector times, correlate with the 700s and message base.
I was unaware of the chaos as they had happily entered individual flight times of 3 hours and 8 hours on 5 hours sectors. They were all for sending me a message querying my corrections but a friend of mine in Ops said he knows what he is doing, accept it.

G-CPTN
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7593
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: The seven seas

#22 Post by G-CPTN » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:41 am

om15 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:01 am
The term "seven seas" has been in use since about 2000BC, the seas referred to in those days were different to the seas that we name these days.
I found that I couldn't name the seven seas today, can anyone else name them without looking them up?
What are the Seven Seas?

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 13095
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 68

Re: The seven seas

#23 Post by Ex-Ascot » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:54 am

PN:
Looking closer we thought they might be icebergs before identifying them as Greenland.
The Navigator was relieved of his job when we eventually got to Gander.
Surprised that you had the fuel for that sightseeing trip.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: The seven seas

#24 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:53 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:54 am
PN:
Looking closer we thought they might be icebergs before identifying them as Greenland.
The Navigator was relieved of his job when we eventually got to Gander.
Surprised that you had the fuel for that sightseeing trip.
That wasn't his only cockup but that was hushed up. We descended rather early and levelled off at about 2,000 feet for a good 30 minutes. I think we even raised the undercarriage at some point.

I would need to look at a map but he might have been fooled by the pack ice. This used to extend about 100 miles and could be mistaken on radar for the coast.

His excuse was he had been kept awake by music from the NAAFI. He had decided to use grid nav contrary to orders which stipulated 2 navs. He applied grivation in the wrong sense.

1DC
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2177
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:06 am
Location: Retired guy from the UK East Coast
Gender:
Age: 83

Re: The seven seas

#25 Post by 1DC » Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:11 pm

I remember being taught the seven seas and five oceans at school, could have been Nautical. Always remember the oceans and can write down far more than seven seas but until G-CPTN noted them would not have been able to list the ones generally referred to as the seven seas . I am surprised the China sea didn't get a mention. I have managed all the Oceans but not so many of the seas, despite my early career at sea. The roughest places were the Bay of Biscay,Bay of Bengal(cyclone),Pacific(typhoon) and Great Australian Bight. Went through the eye of the typhoon, not many people can say that, nobody in their right minds wants to! That was about 1960 in this modern day and age no ship should be anywhere near one.

User avatar
ian16th
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10029
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:35 am
Location: KZN South Coast with the bananas
Gender:
Age: 87

Re: The seven seas

#26 Post by ian16th » Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:42 pm

1DC wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:11 pm
Went through the eye of the typhoon, not many people can say that, nobody in their right minds wants to! That was about 1960 in this modern day and age no ship should be anywhere near one.
My Yorkshire genes caused me to have a cyclone just miss, and that was bad enough on dry land.

Holidays on Reunion are cheapest from around Xmas to Easter.
Nothing to do with religion. The cyclone season is roughly Xmas to Easter!

I had a money saving idea! If we took the last week of the 'low season' and the next week we would be unlikely to have a cyclone and we would have a fortnight at a good price.

A cyclone hit! But at the last minute it veered off and we only got the fringe.

Never been back in the cheap time ^:)^
Cynicism improves with age

k3k3
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1492
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:44 pm
Location: In the Transit Lounge

Re: The seven seas

#27 Post by k3k3 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:51 pm

I don't know about the seven seas, but looking across the bay towards Brixham the sea is very very lumpy, that's enough sea for me.

User avatar
ExSp33db1rd
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3229
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:51 am
Location: Lesser Antipode
Gender:
Age: 89

Re: The seven seas

#28 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:35 am

At some point we crossed the IDL and that really fouled up the aircraft flight logs back at base,
Date Line ? F/O on the SFO -HNL sector handling the sector gave the Pax. briefing and got the time wrong. The Capt. apologised and corrected the time but then got the date wrong. In those days crew and pax. night-stopped HNL, so next day enroute to Tokyo the Capt. said ... " if you think we had trouble getting the time and date right yesterday, just wait until I tell you what we have in store for you today ! " Then went on to explain the Dateline and time (and date ) of arrival in Tokyo.

Nobody listened - listens - to crew briefings anyway. I once gave a route briefing leaving UK and flying over Europe, and ended by stating the time of arrival in Karachi. When I put the phone down the F/O said " but we're going to Bahrain ! ) Not one comment from either Cabin Crew or passengers.

User avatar
Alisoncc
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 4260
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:20 am
Location: Arrakis
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: The seven seas

#29 Post by Alisoncc » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:45 am

Just checked the lyrics for "Sailed on the sloop John B". Sure we used to sing "Over the seven seas we did roam". Perhaps a different version to that sung by the Beach Boys !! Sung by a maudlin drunken crowd of 16 year olds in the Coronation Inn on the front at Weston Super Mud.
Rev Mother Bene Gesserit.

Sent from my PDP11/05 running RSX-11D via an ASR33 (TTY)

EA01
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2980
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:53 am
Location: OOL
Gender:
Age: 51

Re: The seven seas

#30 Post by EA01 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:50 pm

I'm familiar with the term of course, and seem to recall once wondering...why?

From around here..the Tasman Sea, Arafura Sea, Timor Sea, Coral Sea..and then

Philippine Sea
Banda Sea
Sea of Okhotsk
East China Sea
South China Sea
Celebes Sea (Say that one fast)
Solomon Sea Sulu Sea

There's others....

And then there are the Gulfs...

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: The seven seas

#31 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:05 pm

There's a gulf between a sea and a gulf.

User avatar
4mastacker
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:38 pm
Location: With the wife
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: The seven seas

#32 Post by 4mastacker » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:29 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:40 pm
.........Once, in one of Ex-A's chariots we were SLF on a flight to Singapore. The first leg was to Gander. ......... In that cold hard light of dawn, a slate grey we could see stark white clouds below. Looking closer we thought they might be icebergs before identifying them as Greenland.
The Navigator was relieved of his job when we eventually got to Gander.
Was it this incident which featured in "Air Clues"?

VC10 wanders a bit over the Atlantic
It's always my fault - SWMBO

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: The seven seas

#33 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:25 am

4mastacker wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:29 am
Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:40 pm
.........Once, in one of Ex-A's chariots we were SLF on a flight to Singapore. The first leg was to Gander. ......... In that cold hard light of dawn, a slate grey we could see stark white clouds below. Looking closer we thought they might be icebergs before identifying them as Greenland.
The Navigator was relieved of his job when we eventually got to Gander.
Was it this incident which featured in "Air Clues"?

VC10 wanders a bit over the Atlantic
Just as well they found land, Green or not! If the error had set them flying south from the start they may have not encountered land on the radar before they reached a critical fuel situation. One wonders why the Captain, or first officer, hadn't bothered to look out for a reassuring check on the pole star's position relative to the crew's lucky monkey in the corner of the cockpit window and noticed things didn't look right before the radar alerted them!

It seems multiple institutional issues were uncovered here, not least a navigational cross checking process for all planned flights, before the flight, and en route, as well as an ongoing assessment of navigators' skill sets over time!

Thanks for posting, the VC10 site is such an excellent and interesting resource.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: The seven seas

#34 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:47 am

ExSp33db1rd wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:35 am
At some point we crossed the IDL and that really fouled up the aircraft flight logs back at base,
Nobody listened - listens - to crew briefings anyway. I once gave a route briefing leaving UK and flying over Europe, and ended by stating the time of arrival in Karachi. When I put the phone down the F/O said " but we're going to Bahrain ! ) Not one comment from either Cabin Crew or passengers.
Many of the passengers were well aware that something was totally wrong when this flight, Varig 254, went off in the wrong direction, but didn't say a word to the cabin or flight crew....

And it keeps on happening...

Douglas Corrigan must roll in his grave knowing that none of the folks in these cases got to where go where they meant to, when they flew off in the wrong direction, unlike him!
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
ExSp33db1rd
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3229
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:51 am
Location: Lesser Antipode
Gender:
Age: 89

Re: The seven seas

#35 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:56 am

One wonders why the Captain, or first officer, hadn't bothered to look out for a reassuring check on the pole star's position relative to the crew's lucky monkey in the corner of the cockpit window and noticed things didn't look right before the radar alerted them!
Similar to that BOAC Argonaut accident in the Sahara, details escape me now ( 'tho someone will have it all available no doubt ! ) but basically the navigator applied the drift x 10 i.e. something like 50 deg. instead of 5 ? and the aircraft set off in the wrong direction, eventually running out of fuel. Apparently this was brought to the crew's attention by a passenger querying why the sun was on the wrong side of the aeroplane ?

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: The seven seas

#36 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:09 am

4ma, that's the one.

User avatar
Opsboi
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2716
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:37 pm
Location: Watching LHR D-09 E
Gender:

Re: The seven seas

#37 Post by Opsboi » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:39 am

I've just heard a recently retired mariner on the radio refer to 'the 7 seas and the 5 oceans'

Which I don't suppose helps at all...

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: The seven seas

#38 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:42 pm

The reality is that there is no precise definition for the seven seas, as, what definitions that may have pertained, have changed over time.

It seems we are all at sea!
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

belfrybat
Snr FO
Snr FO
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:53 pm
Location:

Re: The seven seas

#39 Post by belfrybat » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:33 am

Many of the passengers were well aware that something was totally wrong when this flight, Varig 254, went off in the wrong direction, but didn't say a word to the cabin or flight crew....
Actually at least one passenger tried to alert the cabin crew but was brushed off with a "they know what they're doing". In the meanwhile the flight crew sat fat and happy for over an hour without giving a thought to why they had the setting sun in their eyes when it should have been just aft of left.

Post Reply