Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

General Chit Chat
Message
Author
User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#1 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:44 pm

The place for tales about the great navigators, people like our very own Pontius Navigator, Bartholomew Diaz, Vasco De Gama, Christopher Columbus... and then possibly our own personal, and others', navigational mishaps.

As a starter I propose Frank Worsley.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Worsley

Shackleton's Captain (film about New Zealander Frank Worsley)

Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#2 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:02 pm

William Bligh is very high on my list of heroes.

He had a very bad press, largely due to ***** propaganda leaflets published by the very wealthy brother of Fletcher Christian. Things were made worse by three horrendously inaccurate Hollywood movies.

He had been the Master of HMS Resolution during Captain Cook's second round the world voyage and was himself a highly accomplished hydrographic surveyor. Contrary to the public myth, he flogged very very few of his men, unlike Cook who did so with appalling regularity. He would chide where Cook would have flogged and flogged where Cook would have hanged a man.

After the Bounty mutiny his journey to Kupang in a 23' open boat with 18 men and enough provisions for about a week took 41 days. He had no charts or chronometer, but he navigated 3,600 miles and surveyed dozens of stretches of coastline along the way.

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#3 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:31 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:02 pm
William Bligh is very high on my list of heroes.

He had a very bad press, largely due to ***** propaganda leaflets published by the very wealthy brother of Fletcher Christian. Things were made worse by three horrendously inaccurate Hollywood movies.

He had been the Master of HMS Resolution during Captain Cook's second round the world voyage and was himself a highly accomplished hydrographic surveyor. Contrary to the public myth, he flogged very very few of his men, unlike Cook who did so with appalling regularity. He would chide where Cook would have flogged and flogged where Cook would have hanged a man.

After the Bounty mutiny his journey to Kupang in a 23' open boat with 18 men and enough provisions for about a week took 41 days. He had no charts or chronometer, but he navigated 3,600 miles and surveyed dozens of stretches of coastline along the way.
It was an extraordinary example of seamanship and navigation as you say. The story of the Bounty built for the 1962 film Mutiny on the Bounty, was also tragic later for a Captain's hubris and poor decision making in the face of a hurricane that lost the ship, and him and one of Christian's distant ancestors their lives!

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... l/5371675/




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_(1960_ship)
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

John Hill
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#4 Post by John Hill » Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:42 am

Kupe of course.
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#5 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:02 am

John Hill wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:42 am
Kupe of course.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/p ... avigators/
In island culture, the double canoe and its navigator were integral to the survival of the people. As an island became overpopulated, navigators were sent out to sail uncharted seas to find undiscovered islands. For weeks, they would live aboard boats made from wood and lashings of braided fiber. Thousands of miles were traversed, without the aid of sextants or compasses. The ancient Polynesians navigated their canoes by the stars and other signs that came from the ocean and sky. Navigation was a precise science, a learned art that was passed on verbally from one navigator to another for countless generations.

In 1768, as he sailed from Tahiti, Captain Cook had an additional passenger on board his ship, a Tahitian navigator named Tupaia. Tupaia guided Cook 300 miles south to Rurutu, a small Polynesian island, proving he could navigate from his homeland to a distant island. Cook was amazed to find that Tupaia could always point in the exact direction in which Tahiti lay, without the use of the ship's charts. Sadly, Cook was never able to learn and document Tupaia's navigational techniques, for Tupaia, and many of Cook's crew, died of malaria in the Dutch East Indies. Unlike later visitors to the South Pacific, Cook understood that Polynesian navigators could guide canoes across the Pacific over great distances.
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

prospector
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:37 am
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 84

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#6 Post by prospector » Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:03 am

Hawaiki - Te Ara
https://teara.govt.nz/en/hawaiki/print
In some traditions Hawaiki is perceived to be a physical place from which the Māori people first emerged before arriving in New Zealand. Others associate it with certain compass points, particularly the east, or regard it as an actual island located somewhere in Polynesia. Yet others believe that Hawaiki can be found in New Zealand.

Knew where they were going, but not where they left from??

Hydromet
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 4301
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:55 am
Location: SE Oz
Gender:

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#7 Post by Hydromet » Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:38 am

UP, Bligh has indeed been badly treated by history, thanks not only to Christian's relatives, but also, later, to the maliciously insane John Macarhur. After fomenting rebellion in NSW, firstly against Paterson then against Bligh, Macarthur applied his efforts in England to blackening Bligh's name.
Some time ago, the State Library of NSW purchased Bligh's log book containing all his calculations from the voyage to Kupang. It was interesting to see how meticulous he was in his calcs.
And yes, he was indeed regarded with respect for his forbearance from using the lash.

EA01
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2980
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:53 am
Location: OOL
Gender:
Age: 51

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#8 Post by EA01 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:40 am

This morning at approx. 02:00 local I successfully navigated my way from the bed to the bathroom & back..... :)

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#9 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:45 am

EA01 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:40 am
This morning at approx. 02:00 local I successfully navigated my way from the bed to the bathroom & back..... :)
Congratulations for joining in the spirit of this thread EA01! =))

Circumnavigations are particularly appreciated, as many people get lost in the doldrums, and spend too long in the lounge... ^:)^ =))
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Pinky the pilot
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2510
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:20 am
Location: Back home, looking for a bad bottle of Red
Gender:
Age: 69

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#10 Post by Pinky the pilot » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:51 am

the bathroom


Why did you have to have a shower at that hour, Fliegs? :-\

Or did you mean the Toilet/WC/Bog/Scheissenhausen/etc etc? :D
You only live twice. Once when you're born. Once when you've looked death in the face.

k3k3
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1492
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:44 pm
Location: In the Transit Lounge

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#11 Post by k3k3 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:42 am

It's all a matter of choice, especially if you have had a little too much to drink that evening, toilet, shower, wash basin, bath, it all ends up going down the same tubes.

EA01
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2980
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:53 am
Location: OOL
Gender:
Age: 51

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#12 Post by EA01 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:56 am

Why did you have to have a shower at that hour, Fliegs? :-\
Um....bedroom athletics? B-)


No....it was a toilet stop....


...you know how it is... :/

Perhaps should I have said ensuite?

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#13 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:02 pm

I was loth to bring up Zhen He as a navigator here, given the 'fracas' going on here on this site, and in the South China sea, but as I have now done it, I will continue... :ymdevil: =))

Zeng He




More detailed... fascinating stuff...



Plus ca change...
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
G~Man
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: California on a fire or a sailboat somewhere.
Gender:
Age: 60

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#14 Post by G~Man » Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:58 pm

Funny this thread came up.....One is currently getting ready to take my instructor rating for Celestial Navigation---this was me two weeks ago "somewhere offshore" of Southern California:
IMG_0264.JPG
B-) Life may not be the party you hoped for, but while you're here, you may as well dance. B-)

User avatar
Opsboi
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2718
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:37 pm
Location: Watching LHR D-09 E
Gender:

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#15 Post by Opsboi » Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:02 pm

Um...Mark Thatcher, mayhap?

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#16 Post by Undried Plum » Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:06 pm

There are two who ought to mentioned in conjunction.

Thomas H Sumner

His book practically revolutionised astronav for the US Navy and they issued a copy of the third edition to every navigation officer in the navy. After publication of the first edition he went mad and spent the rest of his life in lunatic asylums, the fees for which weren't covered by the royalties he got from his book.

The other great man who further revolutionised astronav was the ffrenchman Marcq St Hilaire. His intercept method is so brilliant that it all seems so bleedin' obvious when you see how it works and then you wonder why it wasn't always done that way.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#17 Post by Undried Plum » Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:34 pm

Strictly speaking, John Harrison wasn't primarily a navigator, but a clockmaker who recognised that the problem of measuring Longitude at sea is one of accurate time measurement.

This rather good, though lengthy, docudrama grossly mis-states the actions and achievements of Neville Maskelyne, but it's a good exposition of the tribulations and frustrations of Harrison's decades of work to win the Longitude Prize.



Another one worthy of a mention in this despatch is that of the Hydrographer of The East India Company who became the first Hydrographer of The Admiralty. He coined the term 'Chronometer' for the first time in written history. He was on good terms with both the Astronomer Royal Maskelyne and with John Harrison in equal measure.

He commissioned a long-case clock from the best clockmaking firm in Scotland in 1795. I have it in my study and its ticking is a part of my life.

John Hill
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#18 Post by John Hill » Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:14 pm

Navigating, getting a 'fix' is the art of finding the difference between where you think you are and where you really are.
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

PHXPhlyer
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8242
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: PHX
Gender:
Age: 69

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#19 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:30 pm

G~Man wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:58 pm
Funny this thread came up.....One is currently getting ready to take my instructor rating for Celestial Navigation---this was me two weeks ago "somewhere offshore" of Southern California:

IMG_0264.JPG
I volunteer to be your first Guinea Pig student to further your teaching ability. ^:)^ :YMAPPLAUSE: :-bd

PP

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Great Navigators...and the not so great too!

#20 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:59 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:06 pm
There are two who ought to mentioned in conjunction.

Thomas H Sumner

His book practically revolutionised astronav for the US Navy and they issued a copy of the third edition to every navigation officer in the navy. After publication of the first edition he went mad and spent the rest of his life in lunatic asylums, the fees for which weren't covered by the royalties he got from his book.

The other great man who further revolutionised astronav was the ffrenchman Marcq St Hilaire. His intercept method is so brilliant that it all seems so bleedin' obvious when you see how it works and then you wonder why it wasn't always done that way.
I know how the poor man feels. Having to look at tables of numbers gets to one's mind in the end. If brilliant minds like those associated with Godel, Nash, Georg Cantor, Ludwig Boltzmann et al couldn't stand the strain of the contemplation of numbers, then what hope do lesser mortals like me have?

The biggest loon (and I have known a few) I have encountered was a chap called Davis, an Englishman, and a metrologist, who did the profoundly un-English job of promoting the metric system in South Africa, and who was so successful that he was one of the people who persuaded the very conservative Nationalist government to abandon imperial measurements and to adopt the metric system in 1967. He was also a pyromaniac and pianist who literally played his piano one afternoon, as a bonfire he had started outside our holiday cottage, initiated a local conflagration that required the intervention of the fire brigade to save the surrounding properties, including ours. He could talk incessantly about numbers for hours, with a strange unhinged gleam in his eyes... =))

I wonder what our resident navigators think of all this, they, doubtless, having spent many hours studying astro sight reduction tables! Cue some mathematical music maestro!


Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Post Reply