Electric cars

General Chit Chat
Locked
Message
Author
User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Electric cars

#101 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:03 pm

Smeagol wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:52 am
my question is, 'What about the thousands of people who live in terraced streets, high rise buildings and other places that do not have the capability of charging at home?'
Car owners who live in highrise buildings park their cars in car parks, don't they?

Car parks are where most urban public chargers are installed.

Once again: an imaginary problem which doesn't exist in reality.

Same goes for kerbside charging. Installing street chargers is no more complicated than installing street lights or lit traffic signs or broadband cabinets or cable tv cabling.

Non-existent problems.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17255
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Electric cars

#102 Post by Boac » Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:09 pm

Non-existent problems.
Far from. You have carefully ignored the proven inability of the UK governmental organisations to design, contract and distribute such. I'm sure if UP were running it, it would run perfectly, but...............

User avatar
Smeagol
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1513
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:15 pm
Location: UK, Carrot Cruncher Country
Gender:
Age: 72

Re: Electric cars

#103 Post by Smeagol » Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:51 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:09 pm
Non-existent problems.
Far from. You have carefully ignored the proven inability of the UK governmental organisations to design, contract and distribute such. I'm sure if UP were running it, it would run perfectly, but...............
An excellent point BOAC, and I might add another couple of 'flies in the ointment'.

Whilst the current number of charging points are relatively easily installed as UP has repeatedly informed us, scaling this up to supply ALL vehicles is a different matter. A few charging points in a car park are easily manageable, charging for every car in every car park is a tad more difficult. Similarly I doubt that providing kerbside charging points for every house in every terraced street in every town will not be simple, cheap or easy to accomplish.

And we have not addressed the 'elephant in the room' yet and that is the small matter of supplying the additional power required for these 30 million plus chargers. Our current supply capacity is stretched at times and with our present government (and probably any future one) desperate to focus on renewables rather than more reliable forms of generation, there is unlikely to be the required power available. Add to this our existing grid structure is also stretched and was not designed for the this type of generation and gets potentially more unstable with every passing year. Not an imaginary problem with a simple fix.
We hates Bagginses!

PHXPhlyer
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8366
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: PHX
Gender:
Age: 69

Re: Electric cars

#104 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:10 pm

Rivian is America's biggest IPO since Facebook

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/investin ... index.html

https://rivian.com/

London (CNN Business)Rivian, the electric vehicle maker backed by Amazon (AMZN) and Ford (F), is making its Wall Street debut on Wednesday, surrounded by mania that befits a market that appears to be defying gravity.

What's happening: The company has priced its stock above the expected range at $78 apiece. That will allow it to raise an estimated $11.9 billion, the biggest haul for a US firm since Facebook brought in $16 billion in 2012.
The initial public offering is the largest globally of the year, and the 12th largest listing ever, according to data provider Refinitiv. With an initial valuation of more than $77 billion, Rivian would be worth more than Honda and almost as much as Ford itself.

What's driving the hype? After some choppiness, electric vehicle stocks are hot again. Late last month, Tesla became the first automaker to be worth more than $1 trillion. Shares in Lucid Motors, which recently started deliveries of its luxury Air sedan, have popped almost 350% this year.
There is a huge market opportunity as the world tries to wean itself off its dependence on fossil fuels. According to the International Energy Agency, there were 10 million electric cars on the road at the end of 2020. By 2030, that number could reach 145 million or higher if governments meet ambitious climate targets.
Investors see Rivian as a prime candidate to cash in on this shift. The company has a deal to deliver 100,000 vehicles to Amazon by 2025. It could try to secure agreements with other logistics companies, too.
"Rivian's order flow and backing from Amazon are key validating signals for investors," said Asad Hussain, senior emerging technology analyst at PitchBook.
But Rivian is far from a mature company. It only started producing and delivering vehicles in September (yes, two months ago). And it faces huge challenges to scale up manufacturing in an environment that's confounding even the biggest players.
Top automakers won't commit to selling only zero-emission cars by 2040
Top automakers won't commit to selling only zero-emission cars by 2040
The company's valuation "implies a ridiculous amount of production" over the next decade, David Trainer, the CEO of research firm New Constructs, told me.
Rivian needs to produce well over 1 million vehicles by the end of the decade to justify its rich valuation, according to Trainer. Tesla, which started production in 2008, delivered just under 500,000 cars last year.
"It's taken Tesla over a decade to get to a level that Rivian is supposed to double," Trainer said.
Plus, it will face major competition, as traditional automakers like Volkswagen (VLKAF) and General Motors (GM) invest billions in producing their own electric cars. Trainer said that valuations for companies like Tesla and Rivian seem to indicate that the legacy brands are "all going to go out of business, even though many of them have established electric vehicle sales."
The takeaway: The market is flush with cash as a result of unprecedented stimulus from central banks and governments. That's helped drive market indexes to ever higher peaks and produced a record year for initial public offerings as investors search for new places to park their money. But amid all the euphoria, it's important to keep an eye on the fundamentals.

I looked at the Adventure model on their website ($67,000 without many optional goodies) and am tempted.

PP

John Hill
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5723
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Electric cars

#105 Post by John Hill » Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:24 pm

I will not be buying a Rivian without a fully integrated 'coal-rolling' accessory.
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

User avatar
OFSO
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 18715
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Teddington UK and Roses Catalunia
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Electric cars

#106 Post by OFSO » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:44 pm

Pure fantasy to suggest that every street parking slot could be provided with a charging point. We lived in an Edwardian street in Islington where there wasn't sufficient street parking for every household in front of the dual or triple occupancy houses, nor off-road parking of any description. London has tens of thousands of such residences. I suspect that owning a large estate well away from a big old-fashioned city which was constructed well before the age of the car tends to blind one to real-world problems.

User avatar
CharlieOneSix
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5027
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:58 pm
Location: NE Scotland
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Electric cars

#107 Post by CharlieOneSix » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:20 pm

Correction to my earlier post that there were no 350kW chargers on my route to Devon. There are 4 of them at Gretna Services with one u/s at present. Drivers report the site is always busy.
The helicopter pilots' mantra: If it hasn't gone wrong then it's just about to...
https://www.glenbervie-weather.org

User avatar
llondel
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5943
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:17 am
Location: San Jose

Re: Electric cars

#108 Post by llondel » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:46 am

Here's some food for thought. At the moment overnight electricity is relatively cheap because demand is low and it costs them more to shut stuff down than it does to dump it into huge loads that dissipate excess as heat. With everyone hooking their car to the grid overnight to charge, it's likely that the night time load may well increase, and unless there's some intelligence built into chargers, there will be peak load probably as everyone arrives home from work and connects their car to the network.

A bit of maths. Assume a car needs 100kWh to charge from empty, and assuming the chargers have intelligence to balance the load, a power station capable of providing 1GW output can charge 10,000 cars an hour ignoring transmission losses, or 240,000 in a day if it could distribute the load evenly. There are 32 million cars in the UK, so if they all needed a full charge every day, the UK would need 133 such power stations solely devoted to car charging (UK peak load is typically about 45GW at the moment). Obviously not everyone needs a full charge every day, so if it was dropped to once a week you'd get away with 19GW devoted to charging, again assuming that the charger network was smart enough to balance the load. As I type, the UK, at nearly 4am, is consuming 25.5GW, nearly half of which is being supplied by burning gas, about a quarter from nuclear and 11% from the wind, so it would only be able to provide that 19GW overnight based on typical peak load without significant investment in electricity generation capacity.

User avatar
OFSO
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 18715
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Teddington UK and Roses Catalunia
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Electric cars

#109 Post by OFSO » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:10 am

.... And add to that the additional power required for the millions of heat pumps which will replace gas-fired home heating systems, or so the government thinks.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Electric cars

#110 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:18 am

OFSO wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:10 am
.... And add to that the additional power required for the millions of heat pumps which will replace gas-fired home heating systems, or so the government thinks.
I don't know about air source heat pumps, but I do know that for a 2kW leccie input to a ground source system (22m deep heat well), you get a 9kW energy return. Pretty good economics. Bloody good return on investment.

Another great advantage is that in a cold climate the greatest need for heat tends to be at night when leccie demand is lowest.

Balancing peak to off-peak is the way to go. In the UK off-peak demand is around 25GW while peak is around 40GW. Having the batteries of cars used as a diurnal balancer makes an awful lot of sense.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Electric cars

#111 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:37 am

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:20 pm
Correction to my earlier post that there were no 350kW chargers on my route to Devon. There are 4 of them at Gretna Services with one u/s at present. Drivers report the site is always busy.
Glenbervie to Torquay (576 miles) in a Kia EV6 in a oner would take 10 hours, including three charging/peeing/browsing&sluicing/leg-stretching breaks each averaging 22 minutes.

A night stop at a place which does not have a destination charger is, I guess, a hangover from the bad old days when you did the trip in a firebreathing contraption.

If a ten hour journey needs to be spread across two days, I'd pick an intermediate stop which has a destination charger.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Electric cars

#112 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:02 am

OFSO wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:44 pm
Pure fantasy to suggest that every street parking slot could be provided with a charging point.

I'm not going to join your fantasy that every street parking slot (or car) needs charging capability 24x7x52.

The real world is very different. In reality, electric cars spend rather little of their time hooked up to hind tit of the National Grid, even with today's rather puny charge rates.

Already the technology exist to financially punish cars which continue to hook up to a charger without charging. At Tesla Superchargers I believe the punitive rate starts to kick in after 40 minutes of superfluous 'charging', though I've never been an arsehole so I've never had reason to be been hit with such a fee.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Electric cars

#113 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:08 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:09 pm
You have carefully ignored the proven inability of the UK governmental organisations to design, contract and distribute such.

Very very little (if any) of the charging network in the UK has been designed contracted and distributed by HMG. Almost none, probably.

Private enterprise and benign initiative does it quite well enough, thankyou, without outsourcing such efforts to the gumment.

I don't like your idea of depending on the government in the way that you apparently propose.

Let them, instead, tax the polluters and pass the proceeds on to companies and individuals who are doing the opposite of what Big Oil and Big Auto wants.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Electric cars

#114 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:22 pm

Yet another benefit from the transition from hydrocarbon fuel based propulsion is the fact that electricity can be used for less damaging things than making petrol/diesel.


G-CPTN
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7645
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Electric cars

#115 Post by G-CPTN » Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:03 pm

I 'grew up' in a vehicle factory, so I am familiar with the production process (and what it takes to achieve it).

I must admit that I am mightily impressed by this video:- Tesla documentary.

Getting it right so it actually works usually result in many failures.

User avatar
OFSO
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 18715
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Teddington UK and Roses Catalunia
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Electric cars

#116 Post by OFSO » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:58 pm

UP is a prophet speaking in tongues of clarity to those that will not hear, writing engravéd lectures to those that will not see, and driving his electrified chariot that would not run if we all followed his advice.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Electric cars

#117 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:46 pm

G-CPTN wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:03 pm
I 'grew up' in a vehicle factory, so I am familiar with the production process (and what it takes to achieve it).

I must admit that I am mightily impressed by this video:- Tesla documentary.

Getting it right so it actually works usually result in many failures.
Ten years ago Elon Musk said these words:



Prophet or not, he correctly predicted the future.

The Model S really did change the world.

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Electric cars

#118 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:58 pm

Pretoria High School Boy! Waddya expect?

Not that I am partisan or anything? =))
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

PHXPhlyer
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8366
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: PHX
Gender:
Age: 69

Re: Electric cars

#119 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:59 am

I stopped into a Ford dealership this afternoon to check out the new F-150 electric pickup.
I asked a salesman in the showroom with only one truck and one car in it if I could see the new truck.
Nope. They can only be ordered on line. ~X(
I want to see one and take a test drive before I buy.
Nope. Can't do it. Only on line. ~X(
Whart about the new all electric Mustang.
Nope. Only on line. No lookee, no drivee. ~X(
Well, what about the newly reborn full size Bronco.
You guessed it. On line only. ~X(
Ok. One last try.
What about the new F-150 Hybrid pickup.
We had one but we sold it. ~X(
A Rivian is sounding much better all the time.
I am at least on their email list for a test drive in my area when they take it on tour.

PP

User avatar
OFSO
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 18715
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Teddington UK and Roses Catalunia
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Electric cars

#120 Post by OFSO » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:26 am

With all due respect, UP, it changed YOUR world.

Locked