Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

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ExSp33db1rd
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#321 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:20 am

https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/1946647 ... q-caravan/

It was only when I realised that I’d dropped 120 miles of range in 35 minutes with the caravan hitched — we were just 28 miles up the road — that I might have made a mistake.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#322 Post by VP959 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:44 pm

ExSp33db1rd wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:20 am
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/1946647 ... q-caravan/

It was only when I realised that I’d dropped 120 miles of range in 35 minutes with the caravan hitched — we were just 28 miles up the road — that I might have made a mistake.
I once towed a race car in a box trailer down to the south of France. It pretty much halved the range of the car. I rather think that anyone that tows something like a caravan and doesn't expect to see a big hit on the amount of "fuel" it uses is a bit of a numpty.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#323 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:07 pm

I frightened myself today! I was driving my EV6 on a dual carriageway with lane assist and smart cruise control engaged at 70mph. No problem with lane assist, it does its job well of warning when you stray onto near or offside white lines.

Smart cruise control (SCC) in my book is dangerous. I was in the nearside lane with it engaged when I approached a slower vehicle. I couldn't overtake due to a 70mph+ vehicle approaching from behind in the offside lane. The radar sensor in the front of my car detected the vehicle in front and slowed my EV6 to 64mph to match its speed and kept a pre-selected distance behind it as its designed to do. As the speeding car passed I signalled to overtake. That cancelled lane assist until I was established in the offside lane.

As the speeding car was going a lot faster, I signalled to go into the outside lane as soon as he passed me and I pulled out. The car at this point should have increased speed back to 70mph. However SCC sensed that in its opinion I was too close to the vehicle that was rapidly going away from me and slammed on my brakes. An immediate WIHIH moment. SCC had erroneously sensed an impending collision. What drivers behind must have thought I dare not contemplate.

Whilst other makes of cars, including some other Kia models, allow you to deselect SCC and use 'normal' cruise control, the EV6 does not. It's not the kind of thing you pick up on a 90 minute pre-purchase test drive as at that stage I was more concerned with ride comfort, visibility etc etc rather than an indepth assessment of a myriad of systems. Had I known how dangerous SCC is without the ability to revert to 'normal' cruise control I might well have not bought the car.

I'm not a nervous, slow or indecisive driver. I passed my Advanced Driving Test when I was 72 and I'm well used to automation in helicopters. However SCC caught me out and is a solution looking for a problem to solve - and the problem really doesn't exist. It should be able to be selected and deselected to 'normal' cruise control at the driver's discretion. I dread to think what would have happened if the road had a hint of ice on it. SCC will remain firmly off I fear and I therefore will have no cruise control. Not good.
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#324 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:35 pm

Any chance that there is something in the POH that might give more info on this system? :-?

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#325 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:51 pm

Welcome to the Digital Age, bring back the Morris 8, I had to learn to drive - including hlll starts using handbrake and clutch correctly ! - and think for myself. I passed the Advanced test when they were first introduced, circa early 60's ? and have recently passed a Local AA advanced lesson for Seniors.

Just spent a small fortune with a problem relating to my starter motor, initially considered a "mechanical" propblem, hence the initial cost of replacement, but upon the problem repeating it was found to be some interaction between the starter motor and a digital brain that chose to illuminate the myriad of engine failure warning lights upon start up.

I recall some of my early flying training "engineering" descriptions being stated as " A Suitable System of Levers". Simple to understand.

Maybe if China takes over Taiwan - apparently a large source of microchips - we will have to start to think for ourselves again. ( but then I guess the "Elf and safety" lot will intervene ? ) The only auto control I use is the proximity warning, but having got used to it being permanently selected..... the control switch is near the igniton key, and occasionally gets deselected when turning the key, with predictable results ! Leaving the supermarket I often use the auto key option to unlock the doors and open the boot as we approach, so that we can quickly load the boot, then take the trolley to the sometimes distant trolley park and get back to a wet and angry Mrs. ExS who can't get into the car, claiming that I didn't unlock the doors for her. Yes I did, but if you don't open a door within 30 seconds of selecting the key option, they re-lock.

CharlieOneSix .......... wonder what would have happened if a following car had run into you, would the usual assumption that the driver that runs into the one in front is at fault, have held up in Court ?

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Re:C16....

#326 Post by Rossian » Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:42 am

....have you flagged this up to Mr Kia? You probably have dashcam footage to help them out.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#327 Post by CharlieOneSix » Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:48 am

PHXPhlyer wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:35 pm
Any chance that there is something in the POH that might give more info on this system? :-?

PP
Unfortunately not enough to warn of the possibility of what happened. I shall have to delve deeper into the system options in the car itself to see if there's something else I can do to reduce the risk.
Rossian wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:42 am
....have you flagged this up to Mr Kia? You probably have dashcam footage to help them out.

The Ancient Mariner
I have an appointment with the dealer on Friday for the car to have a software/hardware update so will be making the point to them but I will be contacting Kia UK directly as well. Yes, I do have dashcam footage, hadn't thought of that.

It seems to me they need a software rewrite to take account of the fact that there is no collision risk if the vehicle in front is travelling x miles an hour faster than your own car. At the moment there is only a variable distance consideration dependant on what the driver has set from three preset distances.
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#328 Post by VP959 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:22 am

This is what my Tesla does - slams the brakes on very hard, with no warning, usually when driving on motorways or dual carriageways. The deeply flawed software in the autopilot/cruise control system often gets confused by what it sees and decides that an emergency stop from 60+ mph is a safe thing to do. I've learned to drive with my right foot hovering over the accelerator with the cruise control on, as there is no way to disable the "smart" cruise control functionality AFAIK. Pressing the accelerator smartly disables the emergency braking, but isn't exactly an easy thing to have to adapt to. I doubt that I've ever done a motorway trip where the car hasn't slammed the brakes on. According to Tesla it's a "feature", not a bug in their crappy software.

To be fair to Tesla, I believe that many countries now mandate that cruise systems have this "Automatic Emergency Braking" feature, and I've read that lots of cars now false alarm when cruise control is engaged and their sensors screw up. The sensors in cars have a long way to go to get close to being as good as a Mk1 Eyeball, even an ageing pair like mine.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#329 Post by Malvernian » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:13 pm

I have an ICE Skoda Karoq, with ACC (Adaptive Cruise Control), which does exactly the same. The dealer was no help whatsoever, saying they have not had anyone else complain about this feature. I have written to Skoda asking if it could be a software change which could be done by a local dealer. I'm still waiting for a response 5 weeks later.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#330 Post by Boac » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:22 pm

Malvernian - what year is your Karoq? Are you saying it is braking in ACC unexpectedly?

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#331 Post by OFSO » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:39 pm

No question that AI has achieved equivalence with the human brain. I've made exactly the same errors when driving as the boxes of chips have in the cars described above. The difference is that I enjoy driving and aim to improve my skills every time I turn the key.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#332 Post by CharlieOneSix » Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:39 pm

Collected my EV6 from the local one man bodyshop where it had been since yesterday for a ceramic wax. What a difference to how it came out of the dealer! He did Mrs C16's Audi A3 a year ago and its still as shiny as when he did it.

I experimented again with SCC on the dual carriageway home. Now that I'm aware of the SCC problem I can avoid the situation by operating it almost like I would a 'normal' cruise control. When closing up behind the vehicle in front and unable to overtake due to lane 2 traffic, at the first hint of SCC slowing the car down I hit the steering wheel 'disengage cruise control' button. The preset speed remains in memory standby. When safe to overtake, I do so and re-engage smart cruise control. Repeat as required. At least SCC shouldn't catch me out again.....but it still needs a software rewrite.
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#333 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:38 am

Isn't it easier just to drive the car, operate brakes, accel. steering wheel intuitively, almost less concentration and mental effort ? I felt the same when setting up the 747 for an autoland, easier to just fly the thing than setting up all the auto pilot and associated controls, and then have to constantly mentally assess if everything was operating according to plan. Of course, one had to do it for the extremely low vis. Cat III approaches, "Elf and Safety" demanded it.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#334 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:59 am

When car automation becomes deadly. Not an electric car but a supposed safety feature that killed this poor girl.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 46017.html

C16's frightening experience and the comments of other electric cars drivers here who have noted uncommanded and inappropriate braking would incline me to switch the electronics off, if that is possible. If not such vehicles are not roadworthy in my opinion.
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#335 Post by OFSO » Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:32 am

But why would anyone want to hand over the driving to an automated car? Isn't the act of driving inherently enjoyable?

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#336 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:49 am

OFSO wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:32 am
But why would anyone want to hand over the driving to an automated car? Isn't the act of driving inherently enjoyable?
Well sitting in the queue at the Dartford tunnel doesn't fit my description of enjoyable, but I get where you are going with your point.
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#337 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:16 am

Well sitting in the queue at the Dartford tunnel doesn't fit my description of enjoyable,
At least sitting stationary in the car doesn't require any electronics !

( Oh ! how about unlocking the doors to use the side of the road ? )

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#338 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:27 am

ExSp33db1rd wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:16 am
Well sitting in the queue at the Dartford tunnel doesn't fit my description of enjoyable,
At least sitting stationary in the car doesn't require any electronics !

( Oh ! how about unlocking the doors to use the side of the road ? )
Another human performance factor... =))
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#339 Post by CharlieOneSix » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:54 am

I can't comment about other makes of electric cars but I can of course opt to not use any of the 'assist' functions in the EV6. It's not an automated car and I wouldn't want to be in a car where driving is automated. The trick is to use the 'assist' functions to make the journey safer and more relaxing. Whilst in my book the Smart Cruise Control is flawed, other systems are not.

If selected, and as long as I keep my hands on the steering wheel the car keeps itself in the centre of the lane and steers itself round bends on major roads where there are near and offside white lines delineating the lane. Take your hands off the wheel for a few seconds and you get warned to put them back on. Although I have used it I haven't yet done a long journey in the EV6 but I can see how that makes for a more relaxed and less tired driver. It can instantly be deselected by a button on the steering wheel.

The Head Up Display is a real contributor to safety. Car speed and road speed limit, nav information, visual warning of straying over lane markings (as well as audible warning), visual warning of overtaking vehicles*, systems engaged indication, ie cruise control, all there without having to take my eyes off the road. *As well as a flat plate radar transmit/receive aerial on the front of the car, at each corner there is a small radar Tx/Rx - about the size of a reversing detector button - and these detect overtaking/undertaking vehicles.

There's a sophisticated voice command system to change things like radio stations, air conditioning temperature, media player etc etc. No need to look down to find buttons to change them. I have it deselected but texts can automatically be received on one of the screens in front of the driver. The voice system can read the text to you and you can reply by voice. Not for me though, texts can all wait until I stop.

There's more to be discovered about 'assist' functions that I haven't tried yet. One step at a time.
OFSO wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:32 am
But why would anyone want to hand over the driving to an automated car? Isn't the act of driving inherently enjoyable?
So for those who want a basic car in order to attain enjoyable driving, you can drive an EV6 with all systems off or just not buy one - why on earth would you buy one if you want a basic car! Freedom of choice. I'm happy to use the 'assist' systems where they contribute to safety and where they make my driving more enjoyable and relaxing.
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#340 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:04 am

The more I hear of the EV6 the greener (envy) I become. Automated assistance particularly in tight parking situations, and congested/heavy traffic is a real boon and actually makes driving more pleasant. Having a basic automatic car is the start to that more relaxed mode of driving, while additional electronics helps in ascertaining the best route and gives warning of what is coming further up the pike! What is not to like about that?
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