Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#581 Post by G-CPTN » Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:17 pm

1DC wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:00 pm
Very little tax when you buy one. Most main roads are toll roads and electric are exempt.
I don't think they pay road tax and electricity for cars is subsidised.
Looks like a good basis for expansion.

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Tesla Car-B-Que

#582 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:14 pm

Tesla car battery 'spontaneously' catches fire on California freeway, requiring 6,000 gallons of water to put it out
No injuries were reported. Tesla CEO Elon Musk has previously stated only 0.01% of Teslas have ever caught fire.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... -rcna68153

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/imag ... 209a04.jpg

A Tesla car battery "spontaneously" burst into flames on a California freeway Saturday, and firefighters needed 6,000 gallons of water to put it out.

The Metro Fire Department said in a series of tweets that "nothing unusual" had occurred before the Tesla Model S became "engulfed in flames," but the agency said the car's battery cells "continued to combust" while the fire was being extinguished.



No injuries were reported.

In 2021, the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) declined to open an investigation into Tesla car battery fires, calling them "rare events."

A handful of studies have shown electric vehicles are less likely to catch fire than gasoline or hybrid-electric vehicles — but that when they do, they burn hotter and longer.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk has previously said only 0.01% of Teslas have ever caught fire. That compares with an annual rate of 0.08% for all passenger and heavy-duty vehicles in a given year, according to NHTSA and the National Fire Protection Association.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#583 Post by TheGreenAnger » Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:34 pm

Jalopnik in the issue of battery fires.
Tens of thousands of gallons: That’s how much water it takes to extinguish a single electric vehicle fire. As EVs becomes more prevalent on our roads — possibly reaching 50 percent of all new car sales by 2030 — firefighters are still struggling to get proper training on how to quickly and effectively put out these incredibly intense blazes.

Vox did a deep dive into EV fires. The publication focused on Teslas, but that’s not really fair as all EVs have fire problems. It took General Motors several tries to remedy a fire problem with the Chevy Bolt, at one point instructing owners not to park their vehicles inside garages or near structures and to only charge their vehicles a certain amount. And these are cars that hadn’t even crashed. They’d just go up randomly.

The first moments of an EV fire might appear relatively calm, with only smoke emanating from underneath the vehicle. But as thermal runaway takes hold, bright orange flames can quickly engulf an entire car. And because EV batteries are packed with an incredible amount of stored energy, one of these fires can get as hot as nearly 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Even when the fire appears to be over, latent heat may still be spreading within the cells of the battery, creating the risk that the vehicle could ignite several days later. One firefighter compared the challenge to a trick birthday candle that reignites after blowing it out.

Because EV fires are different, EV firefighting presents new problems. Firefighters often try to suppress car fires by, essentially, suffocating them. They might use foam extinguishers filled with substances like carbon dioxide that can draw away oxygen, or use a fire blanket that’s designed to smother flames. But because EV fires aren’t fueled by oxygen from the air, this approach doesn’t work. Instead, firefighters have to use lots and lots of water to cool down the battery. This is particularly complex when EV fires occur far from a hydrant, or if a local fire department only has a limited number of engines. Saltwater, which is extremely efficient at conducting electricity, can make the situation even worse.

Even when EV fires are eventually put out, they can reignite. Last year, a Tesla Model S caught fire at a junk yard weeks after being involved in a crash, Autoblog reports. Firefighters eventually pushed the whole thing into a water-filled pit to douse the flames.

While Vox’s headline may have unfairly targeted Tesla, some of the automaker’s fire issues are self-inflicted via “cool” design, rather than a matter of physics. The electric doorhandles on Teslas, for instance, are the subject of a lawsuit after a driver trapped in his burning Model S after a crash died. And in May of last year, a Tesla driver had to kick out his window in order to escape his burning vehicle after the car died, displayed an error message and began smoking, Reuters reports.

It doesn’t help that Tesla, which sell more EVs than any other car company in the U.S., isn’t exactly forthcoming in training materials and information for firefighters. From Vox:

In the long, wide-ranging message, McConnell also explained what assistance Tesla could and could not provide. He offered online training sessions but could not arrange in-person training because, McConnell explained, he had “just too many requests.” A diagram for the Model X implied there was magnesium in a part of the car that did not, in fact, contain magnesium. There was no extrication video guide for the company’s Model Y car (extrication is the firefighter term for removing someone from a totaled vehicle). It would be difficult to get a training vehicle for the Austin firefighters to practice with, McConnell added, since Tesla is a “build to order manufacturer.” Most of Tesla’s scrap vehicles are recycled at the company’s Fremont plant, he said, though a car could become available if one of Tesla’s engineering or fleet vehicles crashed.

McConnell’s long email reflects the current approach to fighting EV fires and the fact that fire departments across the country are still learning best practices. Even now, there isn’t consensus on the best approach. Some firefighters have considered using cranes to lift flaming EVs into giant tanks of water, although some automakers discourage submerging entire vehicles. Rosenbauer, a major fire engine and firefighting equipment manufacturer, has designed a new nozzle that pierces through the battery casing and squirts water directly onto the damaged cells, despite some official automaker guides that say firefighters shouldn’t try rupturing the battery. Another factor that needs to be considered, added Alfie Green, the chief of training at the Detroit Fire Department, is that there are new car models released every year, and there is particular guidance on how to disconnect different cars.

I, for one, really enjoy the mental image of firefighters dunking a burning car being craned into a tank of water. It has a sort of carnival game ring to it.
https://jalopnik.com/firefighters-still ... 1850040662
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#584 Post by OFSO » Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:18 pm


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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#585 Post by barkingmad » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:13 am

This is confirmed by my visit this weekend to my local car dealer’s VIP event for Trusted customers where the spotty youth allocated to entertain me and possibly sell me a new conveyance admitted the EVs were doing badly, with many being traded in for ICE and/or Hybrids due principally to the lack of charging infrastructure.

If the said infrastructure proceeds with the same rapidity and success as various well-known UK exciting new projects then most of us will be off the planet before any significant improvement is present.

However, one can always plug in at our nearest spinning wind turbine for ‘cheap’ amps if the weather is breezy, but only if it’s not TOO breezy and only if we’re not basking in a cold foggy anti-cyclone as happens all too frequently.

Oops, I shouldn’t have ‘plugged’ (NPI !) the wind turbine option as this just blew across my desk, through the open window, which I am advised to keep open in the current Northeast UK conditions just in case a Covid19 particle should pass by =))

https://www.netzerowatch.com/content/up ... d-2023.pdf

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#586 Post by OFSO » Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:32 pm

""According to Tesla, the old 12v batteries were a major source of failures in Tesla cars, and they needed a replacement about every four years or so. The new 48v lithium-ion batteries are expected to withstand the lifetime of the car (just like the main traction battery), so there should be no replacement needed at all.""

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#587 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:43 pm

Canadian motorist unknowingly opens wrong Tesla but is allowed to drive away in it
“I mean how was this possible? How was I able to gain access and drive?” said motorist Rajesh Randev, who took the wrong car.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ca ... -rcna74872

A Canadian Tesla owner accidentally climbed into the wrong car and his app allowed him to drive away in the lookalike vehicle, the motorist said Tuesday.

Rajesh Randev, 51, used his app to get inside his 2021 Tesla Model 3 — or so he thought — about 2:30 p.m. March 7 and went to pick up his two children from school, the immigration consultant from Vancouver said.

Minutes into the journey, Randev was alarmed to see a crack in the windshield and discover his phone-charging cable was missing.

"I called my wife, 'What happened to the windshield?' " Randev said. "Then it was, 'Where did my cable go?' "

Randev ignored multiple phone calls from someone identified as "Mahmood" because he didn't know anyone by that name. Then the strange experience became even more confusing when Randev received a text message: “Do you drive a Tesla?”

"I thought maybe some client saw me or maybe some old friend or whatever maybe someone recognized me (driving by) and texted me?" Randev said.

Randev didn't put it all together until the texter spelled it out: “I think you (are) driving the wrong car."

Randev said he pulled over into an alley, saw that the tire rims were not off his car and realized that he had mistaken his own white Model 3 for the white Model 3 owned by the man on the other line.

Fortunately, that other Tesla owner, who is an Uber driver, spotted a prescription bottle in with a cellphone number in the car, allowing them to connect.

“I was totally surprised,” Randev said. “I mean how was this possible? How was I able to gain access and drive?”

Randev picked up his children and returned to the scene of the non-crime, where all parties shared a laugh and some concerns.

"They (the children) were laughing together. I mean my kids are young people so they love computers and stuff like that and they were laughing," Randev said.

"But then on the other side, they were kind of scared too, you know, like how was this possible? "

The Vancouver snafu marks the latest oddity involving the high-end car line that includes elements of driverless technology.
A rep for Tesla’s Investor Relations department could not be immediately reached for comment Tuesday.

Randev said he's been trying to reach Tesla since the incident. And other than one email from a local Tesla dealer asking for his phone number, there's been no response, he said.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#588 Post by Woody » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:32 am

OFSO wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:32 pm
""According to Tesla, the old 12v batteries were a major source of failures in Tesla cars, and they needed a replacement about every four years or so. The new 48v lithium-ion batteries are expected to withstand the lifetime of the car (just like the main traction battery), so there should be no replacement needed at all.""
They’re a failure major cause of problems in ICE cars as well.
When all else fails, read the instructions.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#589 Post by OFSO » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:34 am

Mine lasted seven years and 80,000kms. Heavy duty Ford stop/start battery.
It died instantly overnight. Typical diesel battery death.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#590 Post by Pinky the pilot » Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:35 am

I have occasionally glanced at this thread. Whilst I note that some are of the opinion that Electric Vehicles are (part of) the way to the Future, I will make some (for some) radical predictions.

The Electic Car/Vehicle/Whatever WILL NEVER replace a vehicle powered by the Internal Combustion Engine. (in some form)

And Electric Cars currently in production and for sale will, within ten years, have resale/trade-in values making them virtually worthless. Mostly due to Battery life and the cost of replacement. Also, much of the information available around here seem to indicate that the batteries are definitely non recyclable! So what happens to them??
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#591 Post by OFSO » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:53 pm

Was it not but a few years ago that the UK government told every one they'd have to switch to hydrogen to heat their homes. Not a mention of that now, it's all electric heat pumps. Alternative fuels have been proposed for IC motors, but no, the future is solely electric. Eliminating any possibility of research into clean liquid fuels. Morons are in charge. ....

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#592 Post by llondel » Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:33 pm

Hybrid electric will stick around, if only because any form of ICE, once you've converted the energy into motion, the only way you're going to slow down is to convert it to heat. Electric gives the option of regenerative braking and chance to reclaim some of that energy. It's also a benefit in traffic jams, because with the ICE off and only using the battery power when moving, it becomes a lot more efficient.

I can see the series hybrid becoming more popular though - battery-powered driving motors with some sort of ICE powering an on-board generator. That gives the flexibility and efficiency of the electric drive, and allows the ICE to be run at its optimum efficiency while recharging the battery. It could also be a turbine, less moving parts, more efficient and needing less maintenance than a piston engine.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#593 Post by OFSO » Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:46 pm

Electric cars are being written off for having the slightest damage to battery packs following accidents because there is no way of repairing them, according to a report by Reuters.
It said insurance companies are increasingly being left with little to no choice but to permanently take the cars off the road after minor collisions, which in turn is pushing premiums on electric vehicles (EVs) higher.The report warns of scratched and mildly damaged battery packs 'piling up in scrapyards in some countries' with experts saying batteries in expensive Tesla Y SUVs have 'zero reparability' because they are a structural part of the car.
When the news agency searched EV salvage sales in the US and Europe it found a large portion of low-mileage Teslas, but also models from Nissan, Hyundai, Stellantis, BMW, Renault and others that had been written off.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#594 Post by barkingmad » Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:17 pm

Nice idea having a turbine engine for road vehicles, they might even run on peanut oil with a bit of development... :-?

Here's a trip down memory lane to the halcyon days of early non-reciprocating engined vehicles, I wonder why they never took off? Not literally of course... :))

https://hackaday.com/2017/12/06/the-las ... ne-engine/

I thought from my 'O' Level Physics days that changing rotational mechanical energy into electrical energy then changing that back into mechanical energy involved significant losses in the conversions, but hopefully some here will (gently) put me right on that score? :-w

And yes I know it has been done with railway locos but perhaps their scale and the horsepower required had something to do with the relative success?

Something tells me that the sound of an APU-like engine proceeding down the high street might annoy a few eardrums along the way.

Imagine all those APUs idling in the classic motorway holdup or on the clogged ULEZ streets of London!

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#595 Post by OFSO » Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:24 pm

In 1961 when I joined the GPO the power system consisted of a massive 240v AC motor driving a very heavy flywheel on the same shaft as a 52v* generator. This kept the repeater station batteries charged (a whole room full of 4' tall batteries). There was also a diesel genset. I never saw it in use, as in my time I never experienced a power failure which slowed the flywheel in the least.

Of course, flywheel-powered cars might experience problems turning corners.....

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#596 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:01 pm

Gasoline engines operate on a different thermodynamic cycle to diesel engines. The upshot of this is that diesel engines are much more efficient at lower power settings than gasoline engines. The second problem for both of them is the transmission. Unless the diesel is going to run at a near constant speed on a level surface (such as ocean transport ships, which use the world's largest diesels), then it needs a clutch and gears for mechanical transmission. For any diesel over about a 1,000 hp, the clutch needs to be huge, too big to even fit in a locomotive or car*. So, two alternative means have been tried, diesel hydraulic and diesel electric. Diesel power and hydraulic transmission is lighter weight, but less efficient and more expensive to maintain. Diesel power and electric transmission has become the standard. Both the electric generator and electric motors now have efficiencies of 90%+, depending on the application, so a ballpark transmission efficiency comes in around 75%-80%, in practice.

* The Bugatti Veyron, around 1,000 hp, actually uses two clutches in tandem to get the transmission to fit in the car. I have no idea what this costs, but an oil change is 20 grand, so go figure.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#597 Post by OFSO » Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:50 pm

Not an electric car story, but this morning my tyre dealer (ISO Certified) put 4 new Hankook tires on my car in 17 minutes at a cost of €585. Not quite an F-1 pit stop but not bad.
Why Hankook? Read the ADAC test....

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#598 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:26 pm

matt charger.jpg
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#599 Post by OFSO » Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:36 pm

Electric car values plunge: Falling demand sees used Tesla, Jaguar and Audi EV prices crash by up to 30% - these are the biggest fallers in March.
Second-hand car data reveals that the 20 biggest price fallers in March are all electric vehicles
Value of three-year-old EVs plunged by up to 30.7% compared to what they were worth a year ago
Here are five reasons why used EV prices are tumbling - as well as the petrol and diesel cars soaring in value
The second-hand cars that are falling most in value compared to a year ago have been revealed - and if you own an electric vehicle, you might want to look away now.
Used car valuations expert cap hpi has provided exclusive data showing the top 20 second-hand car price fallers in March.
The list is exclusively made up of electric cars, with some plummeting in value by as much as 30 per cent versus a year ago.

(UK of course.)


Rising energy prices mean they're not as cheap to run as before.

'The cost to charge an electric car has risen dramatically in recent months.
'With electricity energy bills rising and the cost of petrol and diesel falling, motorists are in a scenario where it is no longer clear-cut that it is cheaper to charge an EV than it is to fuel a car with an internal combustion engine, particularly if not predominantly charging at home.'

Diesel in Spain is now €1.40 a litre (£1.10) and my Mondeo Estate tells me it currently consumes 5.2l/100 or 52 mpg.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#600 Post by llondel » Wed Apr 05, 2023 3:18 pm

barkingmad wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:17 pm
Nice idea having a turbine engine for road vehicles, they might even run on peanut oil with a bit of development... :-?
I worked for a company that was developing electric traction for trucks. Wheels were driven by electric motors with a battery pack and a turbine generator to charge the battery as needed. That's probably the best way to integrate a turbine into a car, lets you benefit from the energy-recovery with the electric motors on braking, but also doesn't need a huge battery. Also very few moving parts compared to a piston engine so should be way more reliable.

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