Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

[VP959]

Aww, don't be mealy-mouthed, VP. Say what you mean, why can't you?

(Seriously, though, wish I could justify trading in my 9-yr-old hybrid for an EV... can't make the figures work at my age and low mileage per annum.)

Sorry that was a bit "in your face"! The level of false information and misunderstanding around electric vehicles does make me wonder how some might have acted 120 years ago, when motor cars first arrived here. I rather suspect some might have been at the forefront of a red flag law, in an attempt to try and prevent the march of technology.

In terms of fire safety, it's worth remembering that around 100,000 vehicle fires occur in the UK each year, which is about 300 per day. Vehicle fires kill around 100 people a year in the UK. Funny old thing, but very few of the ~300 vehicle fires per day make the headlines, but if one electric vehicle catches fire anywhere on the planet then you can be sure it will feature everywhere.

As far as running costs go, the variation from one person's circumstances to another is enormous. I haven't paid to charge my car for a couple of months now, there's more than enough spare from the solar panel installation I had put in about a decade ago. Chances are I won't pay to charge it at home until around September, so perhaps six months of free energy. In winter it will cost me around £10 to charge over night and that's about 250 miles or so, so around £0.04 per mile. Before I switched to an electric car I drove a petrol car that did around 40mpg. At the current local petrol price of £1.70/litre that's about £0.19/mile. So, with half a year free, half a year at £0.04/mile, my average is around £0.02/mile, about 1/10th the cost of petrol. I used to put around 35 litres of fuel into my petrol car every two to three weeks, so about £1,200/year, versus maybe £120/year now.

A friend recently bought a mid-sized electric hatchback, cost around £5k more than the petrol version of the same car. If she saves around the same as me, a bit over £1,000 a year, then the nominal break even point is 5 years. Take into account that the electric car's servicing costs will be tiny when compared to a conventional car and that probably comes down to maybe a 4 year break even point. Factor in the high residuals ( electric vehicles have been selling after a year at close to their original sale price - it's a crazy market at the moment) and the break even point comes down further, may well reduce to the point where the costs are actually the same.

[ribrash]

Who can afford to put in a solar panel installation as well as the cost of an EV ?

[VP959]

Who can afford to put in a solar panel installation as well as the cost of an EV ?

Who needs to? Without the solar panels the car costs around £0.04/mile, versus £0.19p/mile for petrol.

That's still a hefty saving each year over petrol or diesel, and combined with the other savings (zero tax, much lower servicing cost, higher residuals) it still swings the balance in favour of electric vehicles. Prices are coming down a bit too, as the technology matures. Still a hefty premium over the petrol or diesel version, but that difference is reducing year by year.

[OFSO]

Spain is now permitting solar installations after years of bowing to the Electricity Utilities and banning them, however upon pricing them, my comparison of money saved versus my longevity yielded much the same result as in my post about electric automobiles, viz., it won't benefit me!

[llondel]

Spain is now permitting solar installations after years of bowing to the Electricity Utilities and banning them, however upon pricing them, my comparison of money saved versus my longevity yielded much the same result as in my post about electric automobiles, viz., it won't benefit me!

Based on what our electric bill was before solar panels, and allowing for the existence of a 30% federal tax credit on the total cost of equipment and installation, ours will pay for themselves in 5-6 years. Give the rise in electricity costs, it might be sooner than that now. Of course, the electric company is trying to change to rules and require solar users to pay them an annual fee merely for having solar. It makes the idea of getting a battery installation and not giving them any of our electricity during peak hours more attractive.

[OFSO]

I was trying to think how many cars actually on fire I've seen in over 60 years driving and the answer is two. The first a Porsche 911 turbo in Germany and the second something nondescropt in Spain on a back road. There was once a burnt-out Lamborghini Espada (?) on the col road to the east of Marseille, I went back the next day to find the engine had gone, overnight, as it were.

[ribrash]

I was trying to think how many cars actually on fire I've seen in over 60 years driving and the answer is two. The first a Porsche 911 turbo in Germany and the second something nondescropt in Spain on a back road. There was once a burnt-out Lamborghini Espada (?) on the col road to the east of Marseille, I went back the next day to find the engine had gone, overnight, as it were.

In 53 years of driving I have seen 1,and that was in the car park at work.A VW beetle had just parked up and the fuel line fell off.I was told it was a common complaint.

[llondel]

I've seen a few, and a couple of trucks too. My sister once had an engine fire when her car dropped an inlet valve and somehow the air filter was set on fire by subsequent ignitions in that cylinder. Late one night on the M5 down in the Devon area on her way to Plymouth, because she phoned me.

[PHXPhlyer]

Driving on the interstate highways it is common to see the evidence of "Car-B Cues", blackened and melted pavement after a blaze. Many seem to involve RVs.

PP

[G-CPTN]

I recall seeing the melted remains of a Reliant 3-wheeler - all the bodywork and aluminium casings were gone and the crankshaft, propshaft and axleshafts were laid out just as they had been attached together with the wheelrims.

[Wodrick]

In my 56 years of driving I had only seen one until recently and I was driving it, Hillman Imp climbing out of probably Oakhampton same as the VW, fuel pipe came off. circa 1970.
In the last few years have seen several, a Spanish curse it seems.

[VP959]

I made an error earlier, the vehicle fire stats for the UK that I quoted included vehicle fires that were a part of some criminal activity (probably stolen cars that were set on fire, perhaps). Just checked the official government data for the last recorded year, 2020 to 2021 (from here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 20821.xlsx ) :

2020/21 Agricultural vehicles Accidental 555
2020/21 Agricultural vehicles Deliberate 30
2020/21 Bus/Coach Accidental 174
2020/21 Bus/Coach Deliberate 14
2020/21 Car Accidental 5914
2020/21 Car Deliberate 4933
2020/21 Lorry/HGV Accidental 763
2020/21 Lorry/HGV Deliberate 70
2020/21 Motorcycle Accidental 283
2020/21 Motorcycle Deliberate 1128
2020/21 Other road vehicles Accidental 850
2020/21 Other road vehicles Deliberate 737
2020/21 Van Accidental 1211
2020/21 Van Deliberate 856

Looks like "car - accidental" is probably the most applicable to ordinary cars. Seems around 113 cars per week just catch fire accidentally in the UK. Seems a lot, and it's a lot higher number than for HGVs or buses.

[llondel]

I'm interested that they distinguish between accidental and deliberate. I guess having a car stolen and burned out is a deliberate act rather than a mechanical failure.

[PHXPhlyer]

The new Chevrolet Bolt will be the cheapest electric vehicle in the US

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/01/cars/che ... index.html

General Motors announced Wednesday that it’s cut the price of the most affordable Chevrolet Bolt to $26,595, making it the cheapest electric vehicle in the US.

The Bolt’s new price slightly undercuts the electric Nissan Leaf, which has a suggested retail price of $27,400.

The Bolt’s price has fallen 27% from the 2020 model, which it sold for $36,620. GM’s electric vehicle push has been hampered by a recall of Bolt batteries, which led to supplier LG paying it $1.9 billion last year. A series of fires triggered the recall, which was among the most expensive ever on a per-vehicle basis.

GM halted production of the Bolt in September 2021 as it worked with LG to prioritize batteries for recalled vehicles, but the company restarted the assembly line in early April 2022. GM introduced a Bolt crossover, known as the Bolt EUV, in 2022.

GM introduced the Bolt sedan in 2016 and sold 23,297 units in 2017. But sales slumped and have been generally flat, with GM selling a combined 24,828 Bolt sedans and crossovers in 2022.

GM lowered the prices to make sure the Bolt vehicles are competitive in the marketplace, spokesperson Shad Balch said.

“Affordability has always been a priority for these vehicles,” Balch said.

The 2023 Bolt EUV starts at $28,195, a $6,300 drop from its previous price.

Balch said GM is committed to producing a record amount of Bolt vehicles this year.

The Bolt’s new pricing may attract interest from buyers who can’t afford other electric vehicles. Tesla’s cheapest vehicle, the Model 3, sells for $46,990, and reaches $48,440 after fees, some of which are industry standard. Chevrolet is including dealer freight charges in the Bolt’s base price. The Model 3’s price has increased 34% from three years ago.

In a March tweet, Tesla CEO Elon Musk pointed to “significant recent inflation pressure in raw materials and logistics” as the reason for the price increase. Prices for critical metals like lithium, nickel and cobalt have spiked in the last year.

Ford has raised the price on its electric vehicle, the Mustang Mach-E, and Rivian has hiked prices on its vehicles.

The US economy has seen record inflation this year, with sharp price hikes on many goods, including cars, making GM’s decision all the more surprising.

GM declined to say if the Bolt would be profitable with the new price decrease.

I went on the Chevrolet website and this was the initial price:General Motors announced Wednesday that it’s cut the price of the most affordable Chevrolet Bolt to $26,595, making it the cheapest electric vehicle in the US.

The Bolt’s new price slightly undercuts the electric Nissan Leaf, which has a suggested retail price of $27,400.

The Bolt’s price has fallen 27% from the 2020 model, which it sold for $36,620. GM’s electric vehicle push has been hampered by a recall of Bolt batteries, which led to supplier LG paying it $1.9 billion last year. A series of fires triggered the recall, which was among the most expensive ever on a per-vehicle basis.

GM halted production of the Bolt in September 2021 as it worked with LG to prioritize batteries for recalled vehicles, but the company restarted the assembly line in early April 2022. GM introduced a Bolt crossover, known as the Bolt EUV, in 2022.

GM introduced the Bolt sedan in 2016 and sold 23,297 units in 2017. But sales slumped and have been generally flat, with GM selling a combined 24,828 Bolt sedans and crossovers in 2022.

GM lowered the prices to make sure the Bolt vehicles are competitive in the marketplace, spokesperson Shad Balch said.

“Affordability has always been a priority for these vehicles,” Balch said.

The 2023 Bolt EUV starts at $28,195, a $6,300 drop from its previous price.

Balch said GM is committed to producing a record amount of Bolt vehicles this year.

The Bolt’s new pricing may attract interest from buyers who can’t afford other electric vehicles. Tesla’s cheapest vehicle, the Model 3, sells for $46,990, and reaches $48,440 after fees, some of which are industry standard. Chevrolet is including dealer freight charges in the Bolt’s base price. The Model 3’s price has increased 34% from three years ago.

In a March tweet, Tesla CEO Elon Musk pointed to “significant recent inflation pressure in raw materials and logistics” as the reason for the price increase. Prices for critical metals like lithium, nickel and cobalt have spiked in the last year.

Ford has raised the price on its electric vehicle, the Mustang Mach-E, and Rivian has hiked prices on its vehicles.

The US economy has seen record inflation this year, with sharp price hikes on many goods, including cars, making GM’s decision all the more surprising.

GM declined to say if the Bolt would be profitable with the new price decrease.

I went on the Chevrolet website and this came up:
Standard Vehicle Price
$33,500

PP

[PHXPhlyer]

Hundreds of Tesla owners say their cars stop for no reason; US investigating

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/phant ... nistration#

More than 750 Tesla owners have complained to U.S. safety regulators that cars operating on the automaker's partially automated driving systems have suddenly stopped on roadways for no apparent reason.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration revealed the number in a detailed information request letter to Tesla that was posted Friday on the agency's website.

The 14-page letter dated May 4 asks the automaker for all consumer and field reports it has received about false braking, as well as reports of crashes, injuries, deaths and property damage claims. It also asks whether the company's "Full Self Driving" and automatic emergency braking systems were active at the time of any incident.

The agency began investigating phantom braking in Tesla's Models 3 and Y last February after getting 354 complaints. The probe covers an estimated 416,000 vehicles from the 2021 and 2022 model years. In February, the agency said it had no reports of crashes or injuries.

The letter gives Tesla a deadline of June 20 to respond to the information request but says the company can ask for an extension.

A message was left early Friday seeking comment from Tesla.

In opening the probe, the agency said it was looking into vehicles equipped with automated driver-assist features such as adaptive cruise control and "Autopilot," which allows them to automatically brake and steer within their lanes.

"Complainants report that the rapid deceleration can occur without warning, and often repeatedly during a single drive cycle," the agency said.

Many owners wrote in their complaints that they feared a rear-end crash on a freeway.

In the letter, NHTSA asks for the initial speed of when the cars began to brake, the final speed, and the average deceleration. It also asks if the automated systems detected a target obstacle, and whether Tesla has video of the braking incidents.

The agency is now seeking information on warranty claims for phantom braking including the owners’ names and what repairs were made. It’s also seeking information on Tesla’s sensors, any testing or investigations into the braking problems, or if any modifications were made.

The letter focuses on Tesla’s testing of the automated systems when it comes to detecting metal bridges, s-shaped curves, oncoming and cross traffic, and different sizes of vehicles including large trucks. The agency also wants information on how cameras deal with reflections, shadows, glare and blockage due to snow or heavy rain.

PP

[OFSO]

Nothing to do with electric cars, but everything to do with vehicles and location.

There is one place where on my drive home from the fitness centre three times a week, there is a momentary and almost imperceptible drop in power from my turbo diesel car, which picks up again immediately afterwards. Always exactly in the same spot, summer or winter. There is no electronic device, power line, or even a building nearby. I cannot account for it.

[VP959]

Interesting article in The Telegraph (behind a paywall, but copied below): https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ownership/

Britain hits 'tipping point' for electric car ownership
'Eye-opening' increase in drivers want their next vehicle to be electric

By Rachel Millard 3 June 2022 • 9:38am

Britain has reached a “tipping point” in the electric car revolution with almost half of all buyers in the UK now seeking to purchase a fully battery-powered vehicle, research has found.

A total 49pc of drivers looking to buy a car said they would choose an electric vehicle, a significant leap on 21pc just two years ago. Drivers are increasingly interested in owning electric models owing to a combination of environmental concerns and rising penalties on petrol and diesel cars, a survey by EY revealed.

The accountancy firm said the speed of the shift was “eye-opening” with manufacturers now needing to make sure they are catching up with demand.

Maria Bengtsson of EY said: “These findings truly mark a tipping point in the UK car-buying market.
“Nearly 50pc of consumers across the UK indicating that they want an electric vehicle is a significant milestone in the transition from internal combustion engines.

“Consumers are becoming increasingly socially and environmentally conscious, and they’re willing to pay a premium to meet their environmental standards.”

The EY Mobility Consumer Index surveyed 18,000 people in 18 countries including 1,000 people in the UK.
The proportion of drivers looking to go electric in the UK is significantly behind their counterparts in Italy, where almost three-quarters are planning to buy a battery-powered vehicle.

Meanwhile, 69pc of drivers in China want to buy an electric car, and 63pc in South Korea. However, the UK raced ahead of Australia and the US where just 38pc and 29pc were committed to purchasing an electric car. The Government is to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030. Many cities have introduced charges on petrol and diesel cars driving through, such as London’s low emission zone.

In the UK, 46pc of respondents said the penalties on petrol and diesel cars was the main reason to buy an electric car, while 45pc cited environmental concerns. The biggest barriers to getting an electric model were given as upfront costs as well as lack of charging stations and concern over how long a car could travel before needing to recharge.

David Borland, automotive lead for EY in the UK and Ireland, said he expected such concerns to start to fade as both infrastructure and batteries improve.

The “vast majority” of journeys are “relatively short”, he added. The Telegraph reported in April how the average battery-powered car can now travel almost 260 miles on a single charge.

An electric car in the UK has an average battery range of 257 miles compared with 74 miles in 2011, according to industry trade body the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT).

The number of available vehicles has also surged almost 15-fold to 140, with more than four in 10 cars on the market now sold with a plug.

Meanwhile, there are more than 30,000 public chargers available, up by one third in a year, although the Government wants to have 300,000 available by the end of the decade.

There remains significant variation: the North West has 5.9 rapid chargers per 100,000 people compared to 111 in London.
Electric cars made up nearly 28pc of new car sales in April. The SMMT expects about 289,000 battery electric vehicles to be sold in the UK this year.
In May it cut its forecasts for overall car sales this year, however, from 1.72m to 1.89m as the cost-of-living squeeze and chip shortages affect the market.
Consumer sentiment was close to a record low in April as households tighten budgets in the face of rising energy and other costs.

Ms Bengtsson raised concerns about “long and complicated” planning application processes delaying electric car charging infrastructure being built.

She said: “A collaborative approach between charge point operators, local authorities and energy companies is essential if the UK is to fulfil the demand of current and future EV drivers."

[bob2s]

One reason for the lack of electric vehicles in Australia along with the purchase price is the short mileage range offered by most EV and the slow roll-out of public charging availability. A quick Giggle search gave the following.
2,531 public chargers.
In 2021, there were 2,531 public electric vehicle charging stations using AC power in Australia.
Uptake of electric vehicles will need to see a lot more in Battery Range and an emphasis on Charging Points in country areas.

[G-CPTN]

I guess that distances between settlements in Oz are greater and chargepoints are sparse and further apart.

[ribrash]

I guess that distances between settlements in Oz are greater and chargepoints are sparse and further apart.

Could be the Ozzie people are not being taken in by all this green crap and refuse to pay the outrageous prices for something that won't get them to the end of the street.