Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#441 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:55 pm

Would also up the maintenance costs of EVs substantially around here. Much bigger suspension components needed, and more damage from bumpy roads, and therefore much more repair expense.
I have to change a major spring a year, and I'm told I give my mechanic less work than anyone else.

Meanwhile, in the real world, EVs can't tow for S#!&

(spoiler: you get 60% less range than the readout says, i.e. you use range miles at 2.5x actual range driven)

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#442 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:31 pm

How bad in the cold?

at 6:42, there's a graph showing efficiency vs temperature from a year's actual use. Efficiency at -40 will be 32%. It can be -40 for over a week in Manitoba.
That means, if you were to drive to a friend's, stay overnight (parking outside, as per the video), then drive home, your friend can live an absolute maximum of 30km away. And you would be risking death to cut it that fine.
This for a vehicle which in normal circumstances has a 360+km range.
In short, EVs are useless and dangerous for rural driving on the Prairies for at least 2 months of the year, and no practical use all winter.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#443 Post by PHXPhlyer » Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:50 pm

Rivian owners can’t help but gush about their trucks, flaws and all

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/27/business ... index.html

Denis Wang says he always hated the car-buying process — until he met Rivian.

Buying the automaker’s R1T electric pickup was so wonderful that he says he drove 45 minutes to Rivian’s Irvine, California, office to take the Rivian employee who shepherded him through his purchase out for coffee. (Rivian pairs new buyers with a “guide” who answers any questions during the process.)

Wang said he brought a thank you card, and a $100 gift card to REI, knowing that his guide had a trip to South America coming up.

“I felt like I kind of owed it to him,” Wang told CNN Business. “He was really invested in this whole process and wanted to make sure I had a great experience.”

For example, Wang said his guide remembered a configuration of the R1T he was initially interested in, and found a vehicle that matched it and offered it to Wang so he could receive his truck sooner.

Wang, like many new Rivian owners, praised Rivian’s customer service and the quality of the vehicles.

They say their Rivians are among the very best vehicles they’ve ever owned, if not the best. Some compared their Rivians — which can reach 60 mph in about 3 seconds — to driving a sports car. The vehicles have flaws, including a recall impacting nearly every Rivian earlier this month, but fewer than they say they would expect from a new automaker. At least one Rivian owner has had the company reach out to them after posting on an online forum about an issue with their truck.

“I thought Tesla set the bar, and it still does in certain aspects,” said Wang, who has never owned a truck before. “The Rivian is probably my favorite vehicle.”

Rivian, founded in 2009 by MIT-trained engineer RJ Scaringe, went public in 2021 as one of the largest IPOs ever, raising $11.9 billion, only two months after its first vehicles for customers were manufactured. Companies like Ford and Amazon have invested in it. Many auto experts say it’s the best positioned of a group of electric vehicle startups hoping to compete with Tesla and incumbents like Toyota, Volkswagen and General Motors.

It’s faced growing pains as it’s launched three vehicles at once — the R1T, the R1S SUV, and a delivery van for Amazon. Deliveries have been delayed. Rivian’s stock has fallen 66% this year as the value of electric vehicle makers has dropped broadly. Rivian laid off 6% of its workers this July.

CNN Business interviewed 13 Rivian owners to hear how satisfied they are with their vehicles, which can cost roughly $100,000, depending on what options are included.

Not all roses
Matt Thomson was nervous to pick up his R1T earlier this year. He’d never even test driven the pickup. He’d waited more than three years for it since placing a deposit, and wondered if it could live up to the hype.

Thomson picked up his R1T at a Denver-area service center and drove it home. On the dirt road leading to his ranch, a problem emerged.

Thomson parked his R1T at home and as his family looked on, tried to demonstrate the pickup’s automatic bed cover that opens and closes with the push of a button.

But it jammed as dirt and gravel had gotten stuck in it, he said.

Many Rivian owners describe similar problems with the feature. Some owners say they’re keeping the feature lubricated with WD-40 or graphite to prevent it from breaking. Some describe avoiding use of the cover or handling it delicately to try to prevent issues.

“As you likely know, there are issues with our powered tonneau cover,” Rivian emailed owners in September. “While most are operating as intended, many are not.”

It’s since stopped shipping the feature and has said it’s working on a solution.

“That was a big flop on their part,” Thomson said. “But if that’s the worst thing that’s going to happen on a brand new car company, I’m going to be okay with that.”

He says his Rivian tows his horse and donkey trailer better than his last vehicle, a 2020 GMC Sierra. Thomson was one of several owners who say it’s so smooth that they almost forget they’re towing something. Thomson said he loves the suspension, which automatically adjusts to stay level while loaded up, rather than leaning awkwardly backward like his old trucks.

“I’ve had BMWs, Lexuses, everything else. Nothing is even remotely comparable to the way this one drives,” Thomson said. “Literally everything about it has just been over the top. I couldn’t be more satisfied than I am.”

Thomson said he’s saving roughly $650-$700 on fuel costs a month and taking more day trips with his family because he’s not worried about the cost.

Measuring up against Tesla
Oregon resident Phil Barnhart owns a Tesla Model S Plaid that he calls “an absolute masterpiece of technological achievement.” The sedan starts at $135,990 and goes 0-60 mph in 1.99 seconds, faster than a Lamborghini.

He says he owns stock in Tesla, and was an early owner of Tesla’s breakout vehicle, the 2012 Model S, which put the automaker on the map and was the Motor Trend Car of the Year.

But these days Barnhart finds himself driving his new R1T pickup more than the Tesla Model S Plaid.

“It’s the perfect ‘dad car,’” he says of his R1T. He often chauffeurs three kids, their friends, sporting equipment and the family dog, in what’s essentially a mid-size pickup on par with a Toyota Tacoma or Ford Ranger.

He was one of several owners who spoke highly of Rivian’s “gear tunnel,” an extra storage compartment that’s located behind the R1T’s second row. They say it’s well suited to stowing things like sports equipment or food. The gear tunnel’s door also doubles as a convenient seat for when putting on or taking off shoes, they say.

Barnhart was one of several Rivian owners who said they were pleased with how accurately Rivian estimates its vehicles range.

“The Tesla range estimate is very aspirational,” Barnhart said. “The Rivian range estimate is actually informative.”

Barnhart believes Rivian’s first vehicle, the R1T, is clearly better than Tesla’s first wide-release vehicle, the 2012 Tesla Model S, that he owned. But Rivian’s software can’t compare with what Tesla offers today, including its driver-assist software Autopilot, Barnhart and other owners said.

Tab Brewer, who says he’s been “blown away” by how good his Rivian is, says he wishes it came with Android Auto, in-vehicle infotainment software that he says is superior to what Rivian is offering now. Several owners say they’ve seen Rivian’s software improve from over-the-air updates in recent months, and are hopeful for continued upgrades, including the vehicle’s navigation, which many say they don’t use.

Tesla also has a more robust charging network that’s suited to long road trips, owners said. For those who are charging exclusively at home, they say it’s not an issue.

All eyes on Rivian
Mike Feehley, who lives outside Charlotte, North Carolina, says when he drove his new R1T to an antique car show with his son, more people gathered around his truck than the classic cars.

“Guys were coming up saying these are the cleanest lines they’ve ever seen on a truck,” Feehley said.

Feehley and other Rivian owners say it’s common to get questions from curious onlookers in parking lots, or to have people in cars driving alongside them taking pictures.

Rivian too is keeping a close eye on its vehicles. Feehley said the indicator and warning lights started flashing on his truck, and the power flickered. He posted about it on a third-party online forum for Rivian owners and was surprised to get a call from the automaker telling him they’d find a time to pick up the truck and get it fixed. He said Rivian reached out to him again when he posted a video of water in his door.

Some Rivian owners who spoke with CNN Business wondered if the automaker will be able to maintain the quality of service and wait times as it scales production. Rivian plans to produce 25,000 vehicles this year after delivering fewer than 5,000 vehicles in the second quarter of the year.

Rivian owners describe being so satisfied with their vehicles that they’ve passed on opportunities to sell their vehicles immediately after purchase and earn a profit of tens of thousands of dollars.

Ross Gale describes himself as a business guy with “very little attachment to any material object.”

He says he’s owned dozens of cars and flipped many for profit during the Covid pandemic as vehicle prices soared. But he won’t be selling his R1T.

As Gale puts it, “Every time I see one for sale I say to myself, ‘How could somebody do this?’”

PP

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#444 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:08 pm

what’s essentially a mid-size pickup on par with a Toyota Tacoma or Ford Ranger.
Cost of typical Rivian $100k
Cost of top of range Ford Ranger $45k

You are not saving anything like enough on gas cost to make up for the initial purchase cost.
Assuming you have $100k - my house cost less than that.
And by the time you've hung on to it long enough to be close to doing that, you need a new battery pack ($12,500 fitted)

If you live in California, earn silly money with some big tech firm, and want to take the family up into the Sierras for regular weekend camping, then the Rivian is great.
It is an "adventure truck", and Rivian quite fairly market it as such.
If you live anywhere where it snows, and want to use your truck as a truck - hauling, carrying payload, sometimes doing long trips, then get a gas truck with a proper 6.5' min long load bed.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#445 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:42 pm

Could somebody answer a question, please?

Why is it that the most pig-ignorant people ask the most stupid rhetorical questions about EVs?

Is it because they understand nothing? Or is it because they know nothing about the reality of actually owning and operating an EV?

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#446 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:27 pm

Rhetorical questions like this are a variant of the Argument by Personal Incredulity.
Essentially, the person already has a belief.
As such, there's no point using facts or reasoning with them.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#447 Post by OFSO » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:34 pm

My second car is a 2003 Fiesta, driven by a petrol motor. It cost new €10,000, and the annual service costs€200-ish.The fuel tank holds the same amount of energy as when the car was bought and hasn't needed changing. The range is the same no matter the exterior temperature. It starts after being parked for five months. I don't believe any electric car from any manufacturer can match this.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#448 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:42 pm

Cheapest EV near me, used, is over $45,000.
My used truck cost $8,000.
What's more, it has more than paid for itself in saved delivery and large item transport costs. This is another factor which none of the EV crowd wish to discuss.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#449 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:55 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:27 pm
Essentially, the person already has a belief.

One has knowledge based upon personal experience of seven years of operating one EV.

That is the basis of knowlegeable belief.

The other crap is just crap.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#450 Post by OFSO » Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:01 pm

Quite right too. One values an honest opinion based on the experience of an intelligent person.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#451 Post by G-CPTN » Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:04 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:55 pm

One has knowledge based upon personal experience of seven years of operating one EV.
With the added resources of solar panels and a wonky windmill - features not available to many city terraced-house dwellers.

This is not mentioned out of rancour but out of envy.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#452 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:28 pm

OFSO wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:05 pm
UP lives in a very different world to most of us, and, dare one say, seems unaware of the fact.
Buggah! I used to live in Ann Street.

Now I'm a country bumpkim outside of Embra.

How shyttte can life get before being banned from this forum?

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#453 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:34 pm

#449
You've lost me, UP.
The only rhetorical questions I found were in the quote in #443, which is what I was commenting on.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#454 Post by admin2 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:39 pm

Undried Plum has asked for a fortnight off.

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#455 Post by FD2 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:21 pm

'I used to live in Ann Street'.

Several ancestors and the family solicitor. You must have been neighbours. See you in two weeks!

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#456 Post by talmacapt » Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:55 am

Re 442.

The same here.

It has been -25c and below from about Christmas until the end of February for several of the 25 years I have lived in Southern Finland.

The coldest has been -37, which lasted about one week.

Both my wife's daughters and their families live in Ivalo, Finland doesn't get much further north, and it rarely gets above -30 for Jan and Feb.

Below -40 usually obtains for at least 20 days a winter.

They do not have electric cars!!

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#457 Post by ribrash » Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:56 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:28 pm
OFSO wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:05 pm
UP lives in a very different world to most of us, and, dare one say, seems unaware of the fact.
Buggah! I used to live in Ann Street.

Now I'm a country bumpkim outside of Embra.

How shyttte can life get before being banned from this forum?
Just don't pay your subs. :-bd

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#458 Post by PHXPhlyer » Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:05 pm

The electric Pininfarina Battista costs a whopping $2 million. Here’s what that gets you

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/28/business ... index.html

The Pininfarina Battista is an astonishing car. Its base price, $2.2 million, is shocking, but so are its capabilities. With a maximum output of 1,900 horsepower from four electric motors, Automobili Pininfarina claims it can go from zero to 60 miles per hour in under two seconds. It probably took you longer just to read that sentence.

If anyone still needs convincing that electric cars need not be boring appliances, the Battista is a convincing, if costly, argument. It has all the elements of a supercar – power, prestige, and price – but with extra-large servings of each. It’s an eye-catching, wallet-straining, gut-punching all-wheel-drive thrill ride.

I was driving along a narrow, curving blacktop road sprinkled with autumn leaves in a green Battista when a flashback hit me. I’d been on very similar roads not far from there about seven years before when I was driving a 1969 Lamborghini Miura.

The memory was ironic in addition to being kind of amazing. The Miura is widely regarded as the first modern supercar. It had a 12-cylinder engine mounted close behind its two seats instead of under the hood, as in most cars. It was a design that, until the Miura, had largely been consigned to racecars, not sports cars intended for street driving. Now, that structure is common in any number of expensive high-performance cars.

Just as Lamborghini was changing everything back in the 1960s, Pininfarina’s car could also mark the dawn of a new era. The Battista is among the first cars bringing the era of gasoline-powered supercars to what will likely be its eventual end. Electric power promises more acceleration and power without tailpipe emissions and, for better or worse, without the cacophony of a V12. But Lamborghini’s current CEO, Stephan Winkelmann, has said that a proper electric supercar isn’t possible with today’s technology. Plug-in hybrids, sure, but not completely battery-powered ones. Batteries, especially ones that would give a useful amount of range, are just too heavy to make any supercar properly super, the argument goes.

The Pininfarina Battista puts his skepticism to the test, but, I fear, Winkelmann may just be right. At least for now.

The Pininfarina Battista has a $2.2 million price tag and outrageous performance

The fully electric Battista was designed and assembled by a company spun off from the better-known Pininfarina design firm that crafted bodies for decades’ worth of beautiful Ferraris. The car is named after founder Battista “Pinin” Farina. (His nickname was incorporated into the company’s, and later the family’s, name.) It outpowers deven 16-cylinder turbocharged Bugattis. The motors and batteries were developed with Rimac, the Croatian electric supercar company that sold a chunk of itself to Bugatti-parent Volkswagen, and which has now been merged with Bugatti to create Bugatti-Rimac.

The Battista is quite lovely to look at, as it should be since it carries the Pininfarina name. The car I tested, the first of what are planned to be 150 production cars, had green paint sparking with flecks of gold sprayed over its elegantly curved body.

The inside of the car is also quite nice. Buyers can choose any number of colors including, if they want, differently colored driver and passenger seats. In this particular car, the passenger compartment was covered in tan leather matched by a custom set of luggage. As with many new electric models, the Battista’s interior doesn’t have a lot of knobs and switches but, instead, uses touchscreens to control functions like seat and steering wheel adjustments.

The Battista's interior is swathed in leather produced using environmentally sensitive techniques, according to Pininfarina.

A knob on the driver’s side door allowed me to switch among the car’s basic drive modes. There is Calma, the most laid back, which limited horsepower to just 670 – no big deal, I guess, but still enough to take the car to 124 miles an hour – and only the front wheels are powered unless the accelerator pedal is properly smashed. Then, in increasing levels of power and performance, there are Pura, Energica (basically sport mode), and, finally, Furiosa, a track mode in which nearly 1,900 horsepower is available should you find someplace to use all that.

In terms of outright performance, the Battista provides a remarkable experience. It accelerates with shocking brutality. It corners nicely and feels balanced, at least at less than extreme speeds. The steering is quick and responsive and a bit heavy but, oddly, lacking in feel at the same time. I felt bumps and pavement imperfections through the steering, but there wasn’t much tactile sense of what the car was actually doing.

Overall, it’s fun but lacks a certain completeness, a singularity I’ve experience when, in a really great car, all the pieces come together. Driving a really good Lamborghini, Ferrari, or McLaren – blasting down a long, straight piece of road then whipping around a curve like you’re swinging on a pendulum – doesn’t come with a sensation that “I am driving this car and it is fast and powerful.” The sensation is: “I am fast and powerful.” Everything seems centered on you, the driver. The experience in the Battista felt less immediate and organic. I was, distinctly, driving a machine and that machine was quite separate from me.

I might blame the lack of engine sound, but I’ve driven countless electric cars before, including ones like the blisteringly quick all-electric Porsche Taycan Turbo S. Despite having much less horsepower potential than the Battista, I recall the Taycan as being more fun. In fairness, I drove the Taycan longer and on better roads, so this is not a scientific smile-per-mile comparison, but there were a lot of smiles.

The ripping sound of internal combustion V12 engine is great, but electric cars can provide their own kind of excitement thanks to their prompt response to the accelerator pedal. The Battista has that, for sure. Controlling extraneous sound when there’s no engine noise to mask it is a challenge, though. In the Battista, road noises and various random clicks and buzzes from the electric motors filled the cabin. Pininfarina created an artificial whirring noise to make up for the lack of engine sound, but it was often hard to even hear or notice.

Pininfarina also set a high bar for itself by calling the Battista a hyper-GT. GT stands for Grand Touring. A GT car is supposed to have outstanding performance combined with comfort for long drives at high speeds out into the countryside. A GT is generally more laid back than an outright supercar, but it’s a balance that can be hard to achieve. The best example of a true hyper-GT is the Bugatti Chiron, a car powered by copious amounts of premium gasoline. Even the cheapest Bugatti costs about $1 million more than the Battista, but the experience in the Bugatti is vastly nicer.

For that matter, though, even fairly aggressive modern supercars from Lamborghini, Ferrari and McLaren – ones with wings on the back and seats that are mere inches off the road – deliver a more relaxed experience in their cruising-down-the-boulevard modes than the Battista, and at a fraction of the price. In its front-wheel-drve Calma mode, the Battista still felt edgy and rough.

Part of the challenge, Automobili Pininfarina CEO Per Svantesson explained to me later, is all that weight. The Battista’s big battery packs weigh a lot, so keeping the car’s overall heft down to something reasonable meant leaving out things like much of the sound-deadening insulation. Also, controlling that much weight when, even in its most low-key mode, this car can potentially go very fast, meant the rather harsh suspension I complained about was necessary.

In the end, perhaps Lamborghini’s Winkelmann is right. Battery packs can deliver speed and ridiculous amounts of power but not the total experience. Back in the days of Lamborghini’s earliest supercars in the 1960s and ’70s, cars like the Miura, speed and power were all that could be expected. The Miura was exciting, but no pleasure cruise. But things have improved since then, and the driving experience in even the most aggressive cars has gotten vastly better.

Perhaps electric supercars are just having their Miura moment. It’s early yet, but things will doubtlessly improve.

PP

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#459 Post by barkingmad » Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:18 pm

Fantastic news for UK EV drivers, not only does the price of wiggly amps, rectified into straight amps for their 'fuel tank', rise to silly levels this winter and maybe *unt will arrange for the grid operators to nick some/all of that 'fuel' overnight, now the *unt is looking at taxing them earlier than promised;

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/tees ... x-25390983

Remember one of the last promises from the current guv'ning party, 3 weeks to flatten the curve?

"The Government previously guaranteed that electric vehicles would remain exempt from road duty until at least 2025."

Time I got my kitcar of 80s technology outa the garage and back on the road, it being deficient in most of the electronic gizmos which plague the current crop of motors. :)

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Re: Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

#460 Post by OFSO » Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:41 pm

Only the 2007 Fiesta survives three months parked at the station while we are away. No complicated electronics to kill the 12v battery. No propulsion battery to run itself flat.

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