Electric Cars II - Not Silly!

[OFSO]

UP just buys the estate next door and installs a photovoltaic array and couple of wind turbines feeding a charging point there. Possibly dams a river or two and builds a hydro system. Has his herds of deer on treadmills. Gets his ghillies fitted with generators in their sporrans.

[Undried Plum]

I would love to be able to dam me river. It'd be expensive as it's a salmon river and would need an appropriate salmon ladder, but the real problem is that I only own the ground to the middle of the river and I don't get on well with the rissole who owns the other bank.

I think that planning laws ought to be modified to make it easy to get permission to build small hydro units and I think that there should be massive subsidies to help fund the capex.

Right now, according to Gridwatch, Hydro power is providing only 2.29% of the National Grid's load. That's pathetic in such a rainy country.

[G-CPTN]

Many years ago (circa 48) I was interested in the possibility of installing a turbine in the 'stream' at the bottom of my then garden.
Firstly I would have needed a licence from the local water authority (unlikely), and, mainly, the 'head' was totally inadequate for any practical purpose - and the flow was intermittent.

More recently, the full-sized river nearby where I now live (Northumberland versus Bedfordshire) was intending installing a 'fish ladder' with the possibility of including a generator to supply supplementary power to the adjacent town (population 13,000).
Apart from the opposition from those who fished the river for salmon, the economics couldn't be made to justify the meagre intermittent output (the extremes of flow meant too little and too much for satisfactory power generation).
Subsequently, the fish ladder was installed without any power generation option.

Now there is a call for what if, but to my mind the disadvantages still outweigh the advantages.

[Undried Plum]

Here in the land of the soggy sporran, Scottish Water demand a colossal fee for any project which involves what they call "water abstraction".

It's bonkers when you think about it because any water 'abstracted' from the river to spin a turbine is almost immediately returned to it in full.

[John Hill]

Here in the land of the soggy sporran, Scottish Water demand a colossal fee for any project which involves what they call "water abstraction".

It's bonkers when you think about it because any water 'abstracted' from the river to spin a turbine is almost immediately returned to it in full.

Water passed through a hydro electricity plant is deficient in cations and anions and is therefore deionized and no longer pure natural water.

Where do you think the electricity comes from?

[Undried Plum]

Water passed through a hydro electricity plant is deficient in cations and anions and is therefore deionized and no longer pure natural water.

Buggah. Can't we electrocute it, or summat?

Mebbe have a Catholic priest mumble some Wopshebop voodoo stuff. Innonnennyewubblyebubblyehobblyepatrick. That sort of thing.

[Rwy in Sight]

UP, can you book a slot/ position on those chargers?

[Undried Plum]

UP, can you book a slot/ position on those chargers?

No. First come: first served. Much like a parking spot.

Enforcement of such a scheme would be counterproductive. People who didn't have a booked slot would simply wait until they could start charging, thus blocking the charger space in the meantime.

[Rwy in Sight]

Thanks for the answers.

I was thinking in terms of weather closing to the initial destination and alternates. If you aim for a spot and it is taken over from another vehicle you may end in a difficult situation...

[OFSO]

Buy a Honda generator. Carry a Jerrycan of petrol in your boot. Then you can always charge the wretched thing.

[Boac]

Aha! A true hybrid.

[ribrash]

Despite all the hot air being spouted on this topic,it is noticable that not many have put down the cash and bought one.It would be interesting to see how many have been bought as company cars.

[G-CPTN]

Once the public becomes acquainted with the opportunities for recharging EVs (and the lower cost compared to ICE vehicles), then I believe they will accept the change.

[llondel]

To answer an earlier question, 300V is a typical battery voltage. It's based on the rating of the available power semiconductors for driving the traction motors. As technology improves, battery voltage may well increase, because it reduces the resistive losses for a given power level.

As for buying one, possibly. At the moment my car (old enough to vote) is showing signs that it's going to fail its emissions test next year, so I expect it will have to be scrapped. The tip I was given is not to buy a new one, go for one a year old. Get an ODB2 gadget and an appropriate phone app to talk to it, then you can interrogate the battery on each car to see how much range it has. With a new one you don't know how quickly the battery capacity will drop off, that depends on the individual battery. When there's a bit of history you can see which ones are degrading faster and move on to the next vehicle.

[Undried Plum]

To answer an earlier question, 300V is a typical battery voltage. It's based on the rating of the available power semiconductors for driving the traction motors. As technology improves, battery voltage may well increase, because it reduces the resistive losses for a given power level.

As for buying one, possibly. At the moment my car (old enough to vote) is showing signs that it's going to fail its emissions test next year, so I expect it will have to be scrapped. The tip I was given is not to buy a new one, go for one a year old. Get an ODB2 gadget and an appropriate phone app to talk to it, then you can interrogate the battery on each car to see how much range it has. With a new one you don't know how quickly the battery capacity will drop off, that depends on the individual battery. When there's a bit of history you can see which ones are degrading faster and move on to the next vehicle.

Most of the degradation of a Lithium battery happens in the first year. As they get older they degrade less and less.

That Noggie bloke of Thai extraction did a video about that. He's a statistician and puter programmer so he's pretty good with numbers. I'll poke about and try to find that vid. It's very informative.

[PHXPhlyer]

To answer an earlier question, 300V is a typical battery voltage. It's based on the rating of the available power semiconductors for driving the traction motors. As technology improves, battery voltage may well increase, because it reduces the resistive losses for a given power level.

As for buying one, possibly. At the moment my car (old enough to vote) is showing signs that it's going to fail its emissions test next year, so I expect it will have to be scrapped. The tip I was given is not to buy a new one, go for one a year old. Get an ODB2 gadget and an appropriate phone app to talk to it, then you can interrogate the battery on each car to see how much range it has. With a new one you don't know how quickly the battery capacity will drop off, that depends on the individual battery. When there's a bit of history you can see which ones are degrading faster and move on to the next vehicle.

Your using the OBD@ reader could also be used as a negotiation tactic to get a better price then go to a "battery pack repairer" as seen in a video posted a while back and get the pack up to snuff and possibly come out ahead.

PP

[llondel]

To answer an earlier question, 300V is a typical battery voltage. It's based on the rating of the available power semiconductors for driving the traction motors. As technology improves, battery voltage may well increase, because it reduces the resistive losses for a given power level.

As for buying one, possibly. At the moment my car (old enough to vote) is showing signs that it's going to fail its emissions test next year, so I expect it will have to be scrapped. The tip I was given is not to buy a new one, go for one a year old. Get an ODB2 gadget and an appropriate phone app to talk to it, then you can interrogate the battery on each car to see how much range it has. With a new one you don't know how quickly the battery capacity will drop off, that depends on the individual battery. When there's a bit of history you can see which ones are degrading faster and move on to the next vehicle.

Most of the degradation of a Lithium battery happens in the first year. As they get older they degrade less and less.

That Noggie bloke of Thai extraction did a video about that. He's a statistician and puter programmer so he's pretty good with numbers. I'll poke about and try to find that vid. It's very informative.

They lose capacity due to age, and also if they're left fully-charged for too long. Seems that for Li-ion, if you've got more than 4.1V/cell it degrades a lot faster. Most electronics with built-in batteries tend to be shipped with about 40% charge.

NASA seems to think that 8 years is about it for a Li-ion battery, they degrade quite rapidly after that.

This is an interesting site for all things battery, regardless of chemistry. https://batteryuniversity.com/article/b ... ion-to-die

[PHXPhlyer]

Are in-wheel motors the future of electric cars?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/26/tech/ela ... index.html

In 1900, Ferdinand Porsche and Ludwig Lohner unveiled an electric car with battery-powered motors attached to its front wheels. It was seen as a sensation, but the technology never took off as petrol cars accelerated to world domination.

More than a century later, in-wheel motors are making a comeback. Mounted in the rim of an electric vehicle’s wheels, the motors increase efficiency by delivering power directly to where it’s needed most.

“In-wheel motors are a game changer,” says Luka Ambrozic, chief commercial officer of Slovenian company Elaphe Propulsion Technologies, one of the leading developers of the technology. They offer the “ultimate freedom of design,” he says, giving vehicle manufacturers the opportunity “to build better and smarter cars.”

Elaphe's design incorporates all the parts of a motor within a standard wheel hub, including suspension, brakes and motor rotor.

By packing everything into the wheels, there’s no need for other components like a gearbox or a drive shaft which usually transfers power from the onboard motor to the wheels.

This makes the car lighter, Ambrozic tells CNN Business, and it saves energy by reducing the distance the power has to travel. It also frees up space in the vehicle and allows the manufacturer to make the car more aerodynamic. A more aerodynamic vehicle in turn needs less power, which can mean smaller batteries and lighter vehicles, he adds.

Supercars and pickup trucks
Elaphe, which was founded in 2006 by Gorazd Lampič and quantum physicist Andrej Detela, has designed in-wheel motors for a range of electric vehicles. The Lightyear 0, notable for curved solar panels built into its roof, is equipped with motors co-developed by Elaphe’s in each of its wheels. Lightyear says the car will go into production this year and will have the most efficient production powertrain in the world.

Every two years, solar-powered vehicles race at the World Solar Challenge event -- and the competition has inspired some innovative designs. Last year, Vattenfall Solar Team, made up of students from Delft University, in the Netherlands, finished third at Solar Challenge Morocco with a solar-powered car called Nuna 11. The unusual vehicle has three-wheels -- two on the right and one on the left.

Dutch company Lightyear says the car, shown in a rendering, will initially cost €250,000 ($262,000).
A rendering of the interior of the car, which will be able to drive around 388 miles without stopping to recharge, and will have an additional range of up to 44 miles a day from the solar panels.
If production goes ahead as planned, the Lightyear 0 will be the first solar-assisted car on the market, but others are in development. The Sono Sion, slated for production in 2023, will have a range of 190 miles and promises to provide an average of 10 miles of solar range per day, in addition to plug charging.
Aptera is developing a solar three-wheeler, which it hopes to begin producing in 2023.
It's not just cars that are being fitted with solar panels. During September and October 2021, a campervan powered entirely by the sun was driven almost 2,000 kilometers (1,242 miles) across Europe without stopping for fuel or plugging in to charge.
Named "Stella Vita," it was produced by Solar Team Eindhoven 2021, a group of 22 students at the Eindhoven University of Technology in the Netherlands. The university has developed a number of solar vehicles in recent years and Lightyear was founded by its alumni.
Every two years, solar-powered vehicles race at the World Solar Challenge event -- and the competition has inspired some innovative designs. Last year, Vattenfall Solar Team, made up of students from Delft University, in the Netherlands, finished third at Solar Challenge Morocco with a solar-powered car called Nuna 11. The unusual vehicle has three-wheels -- two on the right and one on the left.

Aptera Motors, another company that develops solar electric vehicles, has enlisted Elaphe to supply in-wheel motors for its lightweight three-wheeler design, although production is yet to begin. And Lordstown Motors is using Elaphe’s hub motors for its new Endurance line of electric pickup trucks, which it says give the truck genuine four-wheel drive. Commercial production of the pickup truck began in September.

These examples show that in-wheel motors can be used for both lightweight and heavy-duty applications, says Ambrozic, although the designs must be tweaked for each purpose. “It’s not about having a one-size-fits-all motor,” he says.

But some industry experts believe in-wheel motors may have limited uptake in mainstream markets. James Edmondson, a senior technology analyst specializing in electric vehicles for market research firm IDTechEx, notes that most big car manufacturers have based their EV platforms on onboard motors. Introducing in-wheel technology would require a complete redesign of the system. “If you have to start from scratch and build up your vehicle from the ground up, it’s a huge investment,” he says.

All four wheels of the Lordstown Endurance pickup truck are equipped with Elaphe's technology.

Manufacturers are also concerned about durability and suspension, says Edmondson. In-wheel motors are far more exposed to the elements as well as impacts and vibrations from the road. The motors also make wheels heavier, which can reduce ride comfort, although Edmondson notes this could be compensated for by the weight saved elsewhere on the vehicle.

Rising trend
According to a 2021 report from research firm Markets and Markets, the demand for in-wheel motors is expected to rise in line with the growth of electric vehicle sales, reaching a value of more than $4 billion by 2026, up from $800 million in 2021.

The report notes that as electric vehicles become more popular, automakers are looking towards in-wheel motors for their space-saving abilities and improved power efficiency.

Another major player is Protean Electric, which was acquired by British electric vehicle maker Bedeo in 2021. This year, the company announced a new partnership with Dongfeng Motor Corporation Tehnical Center, a Chinese state-owned automobile manufacturer.

Elaphe is also eyeing up China for expansion. It plans to scale up its output to more than 100,000 in-wheel motors a year in Slovenia by next year, before launching production in both the United States and China.

“Now is the time for commercial expansion and production expansion,” says Ambrozic. “We want to be a step ahead of the market to make sure we are ready when the opportunities are right.”

PP

[Undried Plum]

They lose capacity due to age, and also if they're left fully-charged for too long. Seems that for Li-ion, if you've got more than 4.1V/cell it degrades a lot faster. Most electronics with built-in batteries tend to be shipped with about 40% charge.

Yes. These things do have to be nursed.

They are best operated in the 20% to 80% SOC band.

Usually, the first question people ask one about an EV is "what is the range?". It's such a bone question, in so many ways.

For a start, it presumes that one charges to 100% and discharges to zero. Neither of which is normally true. The last two or three percent of charge take almost forever as fewer and fewer of 19,000 cells are being charged. At the other end of the scale, you never ever want to discharge to zero.

In everyday life, one operates in that sweetspot between 80% and 20%. Long distance trips, such as trans-Europe: it's a bit different, but for most of us that's an exception, an anomaly, not normality.

[k3k3]

In-Wheel Motors.

Huge efforts have been made over the years to reduce the unsprung weight of wheels to improve handling, making the rim the motor would undo all of that work.