The Cold War looms again

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#21 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue May 21, 2019 12:20 pm

Most exercises and simulator scenarios involve transition to war with only the naval exercises lasting more than a day or two in 'war'. Not sure about the Army though I expect it was similar with fuel and ammunition limiting play. I know the big tank exercises ended when the compensation cash ran out.

I tried move AWACs sim scenarios on to 'full on war' missions as the TTW phase would necessarily only occur once and actually taking over a 'hot task' was potentially much more difficult. The ADGE guys brought up on one day wars never seemed keen.

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#22 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue May 21, 2019 1:02 pm

Command, Control and Co-ordination with naval forces is difficult. We used to participate in the longer exercises because we were the deployment AD squadron, so we would move around airfields to provide CAP over convoys from about 20W through the GIUK gap all the way to the Heligoland Bight, over 4 or 5 days. The end of the first day, when TTW was becoming war (or was it?) was particularly confused. We could in fact be working under 6 different Rules of Engagement, depending on whether we were talking to anybody, who we were talking to, or if not who we had last been talking to - Boat, AWACS, RAF ground AD radar, original orders signal. If the balloon had gone up, it would likely have been simpler, since 90+ bombers turning up had to be the Rooskies, as we didn't have that many! We always hauled off before reaching the ships' MEZs, as we knew they'd shoot at anything. In fact we would not approach a boat, even if cleared, without a personal confirmation from the AWO at least.
I was asked to help design a ship attack scenario on TLP, and everyone came back with the impression I had told them to expect - it was a CCC nightmare. Problem was, you knew what might work better next time, but there was no next time...until the next exercise, which would be different. When we did the multiday naval exercises, you would essentially be working with the same people, and they would be working with the same you. The CCC got better over time, each unit learning the foibles of the others. Even on the practical level, by Day 3 you would have a kneepad covered in HF/VHF/UHF frequencies (never rub any out!), and you could often get some response on one of them if you lost your main link to jamming/whatever. It was also true for intra-RAF stuff. We did exercises over multiple days out of Gibraltar, co-located with the kipper fleet (Nimord, Buccs), so we could put things together better as time went by. There was a huge tendency by the RN to treat the F3 like a SHAR early on, which was a huge waste, but with practice they got realise we could do a lot more.

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#23 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue May 21, 2019 4:25 pm

I went from ASW to AEW and was familiar with the different OpTasks. Now the AEW only knew their way around the OpTask Alpha. I asked for the Charlie too (I think that was Comms) and dug out the exercise complan of which the old hands were totally unaware.

Well the real old hands had just gone with the Nott cuts.

Any way we got on task exactly at the freak change. Could we contact the AWO, no chance? Who issued the Complan? Why, the AWO's ship. Of course I got the blame until they apologized.

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#24 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue May 21, 2019 4:56 pm

I know the Vulcan was no high speed jet at low level. While low level training was limited to 240 kts cruise with short periods during bomb runs of 350. For the war mission the cruise was planned at 325 with max 375.

I think most crews planned on slow speed over Sweden until penetration so they could do the overland phase nearer 375. The aircraft release to service permitted a once only dash at 415 for 10 minutes.

I don't know any crew who would have obeyed the RTS. In an international exercise we went through the target at 420 being pursued by a Vatour. It was quite sporty.

I also have it on good authority that Ron Dick, having been held off was called in to the Farnborough display late. He accelerated 375, he thought, with the Co calling over speed as the speed approached 475.

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#25 Post by G~Man » Tue May 21, 2019 5:35 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 12:11 pm
A submariner treats anything that can't submerge as a target. ASW crews treat anything that can as a target. RN treats anything that flies as a target.
And I spent my time in Nimrods doing ASW ready to target submarines...
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Re: The Cold War looms again

#26 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue May 21, 2019 5:39 pm

G-Man, me too. Our best tally on Locked Gate was 3 per sortie. But we were on the best sqn. :)

In a tour, I wonder how many contacts an AD crew had. I can think of 5 notable ops with quite a few others as 'ordinary'.

Even on 8 Sqn we had eyes on Kiev and a Kresta 2.

I think Maritime had to have the most crew contact time.

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#27 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue May 21, 2019 5:51 pm

krivak detail 001cropsm.jpg
krivak detail 001cropsm.jpg (51.59 KiB) Viewed 1446 times
This was the first pass. The second was across the fo'c'sle at about 100 feet, and the picture was only useful for Russian uniform recce ;)))

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#28 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue May 21, 2019 7:45 pm

Tut tut, 600 feet quarter mile for that. First should have been 400.

Krivak 1 is I am right. We had 'fun' with a Krivak 2. Its name was exceptionally long and no one noticed it was first of class. Later one crew had a go at photographing the engines.

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#29 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue May 21, 2019 8:48 pm

Krivak I indeed, old-style turrets.
I was holding close formation; my nav took the piccy.
Your distance estimate is way out - we were told to stay 5 miles away ;)))

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#30 Post by G~Man » Tue May 21, 2019 9:10 pm

All our photo runs were 200' quarter mile. Some pics here and the camera we used---with the beam window open:
308795_1528751714092_1693694119_746424_1762038392_n.jpg
60762_373286906079981_1176429551_n.jpg
19005_409282862480385_848036914_n.jpg
166923_1528750754068_1693694119_746423_1059408346_n.jpg
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Re: The Cold War looms again

#31 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue May 21, 2019 9:33 pm

The frigate is a Udaloy - ASW. The subs we were not required to know, but I think it's an Oscar. I had a trip in a Nimrod once. We were doing fighter affil with them, so we stuck one of their pilots in a Tornado, and some of us got flights with them. This meant we could provide feedback to the crew on what the fighters were doing whilst they were engaged - it was a very useful exercise for all concerned. I remember being offered tea and dairy cream sponge cake shortly after takeoff, which was a novel experience for a fighter jock! ISTR it usually, if the Nimrod was well flown, took a couple of 360s before one of two fighters could get into a two circle fight with the Nimrod, after which you were toast. I also recall how difficult it was to co-ordinate and build an air picture with 13 guys all looking out of small windows, whereas we had the advantage of one big bubble to see out of. Also, coming straight down out of the vertical was a good surprise tactic on anything non-fighter.

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#32 Post by G~Man » Tue May 21, 2019 9:51 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:33 pm
I remember being offered tea and dairy cream sponge cake shortly after takeoff, which was a novel experience for a fighter jock!
SOP for us....Oh and the stews we would make.

My identification skills these days are not good---I used to be able to identify most soviet war ships with just a glance.

We were also a "fighter" for those that did not know, we had sidewinders installed:
n821215180_1384985_8875.jpg
n821215180_1384985_8875.jpg (30.59 KiB) Viewed 1418 times
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Re: The Cold War looms again

#33 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue May 21, 2019 9:54 pm

I remember you were very proud of that. I also remember us saying that you had no excuses when you lost to another fighter ;)))

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#34 Post by G~Man » Tue May 21, 2019 10:13 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:54 pm
I remember you were very proud of that. I also remember us saying that you had no excuses when you lost to another fighter ;)))
Yeah well there is that.... What was worse is that I had family rivalry---my sister married a Tornado pilot....so it never ended. (I of course introduced them as he joined the RAF same day as me, and he transferred from Nimrods to Tornado).
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Re: The Cold War looms again

#35 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue May 21, 2019 10:28 pm

The things I remember were that you couldn't use the vertical at all, so as long as we stayed up around 3,000 feet when anywhere near your nose there was no way you could get a shot off, and how difficult it was to see out the windows when turning. We had to remember not to use burner, as your best bet was to find a cloud and wait for us to run out of fuel.
my sister married a Tornado pilot
How embarrassing!

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#36 Post by G~Man » Tue May 21, 2019 11:14 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:28 pm
How embarrassing!
Indeedy.... B-)
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Re: The Cold War looms again

#37 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed May 22, 2019 5:54 am

I was obviously a generation earlier when 'there is no point in fighter affil', but one day they humoured me and we had quite a good little exercise arranged. We were returned to the Moray Buchan scrambled an F4. We were well inside territorial water before the join.

IIRC we had some problem while the F4 was in PD. The moment he switched, game on. Every time he looked up the Nimrod was banking hard in his 12, going left or right, little IR with engines throttled back. Slow turning was not their game.

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#38 Post by ricardian » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:53 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 12:11 pm
That was one reason why we planned to fly out high and hopefully laterally displaced from the Red bombers inbound. We didn't trust you either.
A submariner treats anything that can't submerge as a target. ASW crews treat anything that can as a target. RN treats anything that flies as a target.
In the hunt for the Bismark it was Swordfish aircraft from HMS Ark Royal that attacked HMS Sheffield after mistakenly identifying Sheffield as the Bismark; fortunately the torpedoes that hit HMS Sheffield did not explode because they were fitted with the very latest magnetic detonators which failed.
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Re: The Cold War looms again

#39 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:05 pm

The Hunting of the Bismarck was my 'O' Level History project. To be fair to the WAFUs, they had been briefed there were no Allied ships in the area, giving them carte blanche to launch on anything sighted. Military Intelligence is an oxymoron, but Naval Intelligence can be worse - they have just enough knowledge to be dangerous ;)))
In fact it was a blessing in disguise, for the Swordfish had their torpedoes fitted with the older contact fuses afterwards, and the next raid disabled the Bismarck's port rudder, jamming it over to one side and dooming it.

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Re: The Cold War looms again

#40 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:14 am

As it happens the Nimrod couldn't kill a submarine until late 70s, as the passive torpedo was too slow and the high speed one fuse didn't work until just before we got the 44.

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