Concorde.

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Cacophonix
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Re: Concorde.

#21 Post by Cacophonix » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:02 am

ExSp33db1rd wrote:Our 747 F flight manual had a ....quote .. Max. Wt at start of Taxy, ie. a ramp weight in excess of max take off weight. Loading extra fuel for long anticipated taxy resulted in us slightly exceeding even that. The Capt. ordered the crew bags removed to achieve the max. wt. We objected, he said "Trust me." Bags unloaded, loadsheet amended and legally signed, engines started, aircraft pushed back, moved forward under own power about 3 feet, stopped, crew bags re-loaded. WTF ? It says max weight at start of taxy, said the Capt. nowhere does the flight manual say that the weight can't increase during the taxy. QED. He held a law degree.


Not so mush (mush being the operative word) a sea lawyer as an aviation one then! ;)

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Re: Concorde.

#22 Post by Boac » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:03 am

Wonderful! Reminds me of the time BEA stripped the galleys out of an aircraft to get it out of where it was (following a 'whoopsie'- field too short for normal operating fit) and luckily the outbound Captain opened the forward hold on his walk-round................ =))

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Re: Concorde.

#23 Post by probes » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:32 am

So, one might conclude - the crucial factors were the spacer and the wind.

(But I do love how the investigators always stress - a major disaster is always a chain of events).

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Re: Concorde.

#24 Post by Boac » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:56 am

It could be argued that the spacer was 'crucial' since its absence is thought to have caused the a/c to depart the 'normal' take-off surface and encounter the metal which damaged the tyre, but wind played no part as far as I can see.

I would place the F/E's actions in unilaterally shutting down No2 high on the 'crucial' list since the a/c had little chance of reaching 3 engine safety speed.

Amongst the many 'what-if's' is could it have reached Le Bourget on 4 engines before the c of g became an insurmountable problem?

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Re: Concorde.

#25 Post by Cacophonix » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:06 pm

Boac wrote:It could be argued that the spacer was 'crucial' since its absence is thought to have caused the a/c to depart the 'normal' take-off surface and encounter the metal which damaged the tyre, but wind played no part as far as I can see.

I would place the F/E's actions in unilaterally shutting down No2 high on the 'crucial' list since the a/c had little chance of reaching 3 engine safety speed.

Amongst the many 'what-if's' is could it have reached Le Bourget on 4 engines before the c of g became an insurmountable problem?


While I cannot argue with your comments about the No. 2 engine shutdown being one of the primary causes of this accident I am apt to question your comment about the wind. It might be argued that aircraft would have become airborne without or before encountering the object on the runway that precipitated the cascade of events that caused this aircraft to crash if the pilot had elected to note the wind, recalibrate and request a different take off direction/configuration. I would say that the wind speed is a definite part of the chain of causation here while accepting that ultimately the aircraft failed to reach 3 engine safety speed in the situation that developed here.

As to the No.2 engine question this paragraph forms part of the official report summary and notes the following:

The Concorde taking off from runway 26R at a speed of 175 kt ran over a strip of metal from a DC 10 which had taken off a few minutes before. This strip cut the tyre on wheel N¡ 2 of the left main landing gear, as part of a process that remains to be determined. One or more pieces of the tyre were thrown against the underside of the wing at the level of tank N¡ 5. This led to the rupture of the tank as part of a process, currently under study, which appears to associate the deformation of the tank wall and the propagation of the shock wave through the kerosene. A significant leak resulted from this. The escaping kerosene was whisked around in the turbulence around the landing gear and caught fire. The causes of the combustion are still being researched. Engines 1 and 2 then encountered severe problems, either through ingesting pieces of tyre or other pieces of the plane, or more likely through the kerosene leak itself and/or through the hot gases caused by the combustion of the kerosene. The aircraft took off with a very large stabilised flame that caused structural damage throughout the flight. The engine 2 fire alarm came on, and the crew announced shut down of this engine a few seconds later. The aircraft was flying at low speed and remained at a low altitude. The crew noticed that the landing gear would not retract, this non-retraction being explicable either by damage to circuits or systems following shocks resulting from the destruction of the tyre, or by exposure to flames. The crew mentioned a possible landing at Le Bourget aerodrome. The loss of power on engine 1 that occurred a few seconds later probably resulted from the ingestion of a mixture of hot gases/kerosene and internal damage caused by the previous ingestion. Aircraft angle of attack and bank then increased sharply, control of the aircraft was lost as a result of a combination of thrust asymmetry, due to profound thrust-drag imbalance and, perhaps to structural damage caused by fire. The thrust of engines 3 and 4 fell suddenly due to slipstream distortion. The aircraft crashed.


Obviously the inability to retract the undercarriage exacerbated the low energy/speed situation in which the crew found themselves in as well!

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Re: Concorde.

#26 Post by probes » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:17 pm

Well, it was a somewhat metaphorical statement anyway, but still - tons of hi-tech systems and years of experience and skills destroyed by something as basic as that.
Plus, there's probably no way to be sure that the spark to ignite the fuel actually DID come from the slashed wire that made the undercarriage inoperable... didn't retract it, that is?

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Re: Concorde.

#27 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:27 am

I think the decision to continue the take off with a now slightly unfavourable tailwind, may well have been influenced by the physical distance to travel to use the reciprocal runway, i.e. a looonng way across the airfield, ending up behind a queue of aircraft that were now already going that way, all of which would have used more fuel than had originally been allowed for the taxi, therefore requiring a return to the ramp to refuel once again, and being already late ... you get the picture ? 'course .... ATC may have allowed them to enter and backtrack the full length, but knowing CDG, and the French ... say n'more.

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DISCOVERY HISTORY NOW

#28 Post by Capetonian » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:22 pm

'Anatomy of a disaster'.
Also showing at 2359Z

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Re: Concorde.

#29 Post by k3k3 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:38 pm

Programmed to record, channel 171 on Sky in the UK.

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Re: Concorde.

#30 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:07 am

In the early days of the Tornado F3, our ever-nice QFIs used to combined the swept-wing heavyweight and single-engined approach practices. This involved turning into the pattern immediately after take-off and putting the wings back to 67 degree sweep to simulate a wingsweep failure, and we'd also only use power on one of the two engines. The final approach with gear down was flown at 16 Alpha. More than 17 alpha and the aircraft would depart, less than 15 Alpha and the gear would be overspeed. After the low go-around, it was imperitive to get the gear up immediately, as the aircraft was almost incapable of climbing, or accelerating, with just one engine in reheat. This sounds very similar to the situation the Concorde accident crew found themselves in with the gear unretractable.

Something else I read, and wonder if the program will mention, was that the reason they decided to get the aircraft airborne is that it was headed off the runway.....towards the French President's aircraft which had just landed. Can anyone else confirm whether or not this is true?

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Re: Concorde.

#31 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:10 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:07 am


Something else I read, and wonder if the program will mention, was that the reason they decided to get the aircraft airborne is that it was headed off the runway.....towards the French President's aircraft which had just landed. Can anyone else confirm whether or not this is true?
Yes that appears to be true. The aircraft had the steerability of a shopping trolley due to a missing spacer on the undercarriage although the French authorities denied this was part of the chain of causality in the disaster!
Post-accident investigation revealed that the aircraft was over the maximum takeoff weight for ambient temperature and other conditions, and 810 kg (1,790 lb) over the maximum structural weight, loaded so that the centre of gravity was aft of the take-off limit.Fuel transfer during taxiing left the number 5 wing tank 94 percent fullA 30-centimetre (12 in) spacer normally keeps the left main landing gear in alignment, but it had not been replaced after recent maintenance; the Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses pour la Sécurité de l'Aviation Civile concluded that this did not contribute to the accident.
From Wiki
Go back to that photograph. An amazing picture: but where was it taken? The answer is: inside an Air France Boeing 747 which had just landed from Japan, and was waiting to cross Concorde's runway on its way back to the terminal. Its passengers included Jacques Chirac and his wife, the President and first lady of France, returning from the G7 summit.

Concorde looks to be nearby because it had been close to hitting the 747, an event which would have turned both aircraft into a giant fireball. Veering wildly to the left, like a recalcitrant supermarket trolley with a jammed wheel, Concorde's undercarriage had locked askew.

When Marty pulled back on the control column to raise the nose and take to the air - the process pilots call 'rotation' - the plane's airspeed was only 188 knots, 11 knots below the minimum recommended velocity (VR) required for this manoeuvre.

But he had no choice: the plane was about to leave the tarmac altogether and plough into the soft and bumpy grass at its side. That might have ripped off the landing gear, leaving Concorde to overturn and blow up on its own. If not, the 747 lay straight ahead. So he took to the air, although he knew he was travelling too slowly, which would impair the damaged plane's chances of survival.

The BEA's interim report, published last January, notes that according to the cockpit voice record, the instant before Marty rotated, Jean Marcot, his co-pilot, screamed: 'Watch out!' The report states: 'At this stage it is not possible to explain this exclamation.' Marcot was at the front of a Concorde thundering off a runway at 200mph towards a 747 carrying his head of state: his exclamation seems reasonably explicable.
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_I ... pacer.html
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You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
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Re: Concorde.

#32 Post by Capetonian » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:33 pm

On BBC4 now.

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Re: Concorde.

#33 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:04 pm

Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

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