Airline Pilot Training

[Ex-Ascot]

From Capt Slasher: MCPL

I am just switching this discussion to a new thread. I had never heard of this animal. It is over twenty years since I left the airline. Further info here: viewtopic.php?p=188783#p188783

What does a S/O do? I see that you can get a MCPL without any real flight time. When does one of these so called pilots learn to actually fly an aircraft?

Considering my flying training and that of all the other pilots on this forum I find all this quite incredulous.

[Rwy in Sight]

Irrelevant post deleted

[Ex-Ascot]

Sorry the link above for further info should be: Training

Only noticed the error after I could edit the post.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ex-Ascot will remember the change to the RAF training system - the Systems Approach to Flying Training. Much decried by the QFIs it nevertheless turned out pilots and rearcrew who had learnt everything they had been taught.

It extended through the type conversion and turned out fully capable switch
operators. They then needed proper role training and close supervision by experienced aircrew. The big shock came with the annual check by the trappers. No minimal path to competency; you would get an intensive one on one oral into things you never even thought of. Unless your whole system can install chairmanship before giving them a full licence what do you have?

I remember one incident when the navigator spotted a mismatch between the groundspeed and airspeed. The way the groundspeed was dropping suggested a severe risk of stopping. The pilots hadn't noticed the airspeed readings were frozen. Would experienced airmanship have saved AF447?

[Undried Plum]

Would experienced airmanship have saved AF447?

Would airmanship have saved AF447?

There. Fixed it for you.

A self-answering question.

[Pontius Navigator]

Yes, I guess experience is a large part of airmanship.

Airmanship lectures always puzzled me. I think I learnt much more from listening to crewroom chat and reading the flight safety magazines.

In the 60s the Bomber Command Flight Safety Review was a fairly thick magazine, probably quarterly, and we also got Air Clues monthly and Cickpitr, the RN equivalent. As the size of the fleets was reduced the number of incidents leading to articles reduced and improved safety also affected the content.

Command magazines disappeared, Air Clues became and irregular quarterly/semi-annual, and crew rooms were frequently empty.

[Boac]

Post flying I was working in simulators and we looked at running MCPL courses - it would not have been an issue but we got frightened at the prospect of an MCPL in the cockpit while Cap goes to the loo and...................

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I think my airmanship stems from 3 units, the UAS, Brawdy, and my first Squadron.
I first learnt to fly on a cadet flying scholarship at a civvy flying club, thirty hours including ten solo. Within 5 hours instruction on the UAS, starting from Square One again, it was obvious to me I knew f-all about flying from my flying scholarship. The systems approach, ground and air, done by the RAF was much more rigorous. I felt genuinely confident, and it frightened me how little I had known thinking back on the civvy experience. However, past sector recce I don't think the SAFT is enough. It does not build airmanship anything like as fast as flying with experienced guys who have the licence and time to chuck random stuff at students. UAS students now get a 15 hour programme, I flew nearly 150 hours on the UAS, with instructors who had done everything you can think of with aeroplanes, from bombing Berlin, flying Spits and Meatboxes through RAFG nuclear Canberras to Lightnings, Nimrods, Shackletons, etc.
I also grabbed every opportunity to fly on staff continuation training flights. I didn't ask directly, but hung around the student crewroom with a puppy dog expression, hoping for walkies. I made tea, tidied the ops room, carried bags, and when I got the chance I sat in the aircraft and shut up. And I watched very closely. And so the staff were often happy to take me up. Occasionally I would be chucked a very valuable bone of experience.
And that 100 extra hours the studes now don't get saves, what, £50,000? Peanuts compared to the airmanship gained which can be used to operate the frontline aircraft more effectively and more safely.
It's also the case that it has to come from RAF instructors, not civvies on contract, even if those civvies used to be RAF because their civilian company will give them zero leeway.
At Brawdy, I had the good fortune to fly with an incredibly talented and experienced bunch of guys, three of them over 50 years old, in an environment where they could basically do what they liked. Then on the frontline, I was the JP at age 25, one of only two abbo pilots (both of whom came top on their TWU courses) again surrounded by very experienced crews working up a new jet in new roles with a Boss who ordered us to say yes to every external request, and fulfill them.
In summary, SAFT is a definite requirement for the basics, but cutting FT hours and civilianising it were spectacularly stupid mistakes which don't even work on overall cost grounds, but only because of the artificially divvying up of budgets between sections of the RAF and Government.

As for civvy training, I did that in the US at a school in the US that taught, among others, Sabena and Korean Air ab initio crews. What I did here, for example, was to string several navexs together and go on landaways. It didn't involve overnight stops (the students couldn't afford that), but it did involve assorted airports from major hubs to minor aerodromes, much more planning variety, some replanning 'on the hoof' at intermediate points, and more weather variety. I also put in day-into-night legs. It was much more valuable to them than the scripted stuff mostly from home plate which was the airline approved syllabus.

[Pontius Navigator]

My son in law, ex-RAF Eng WG CDR decided he wanted to be an airline pilot at the age of 50. He knew aircrew and said it must be easy.

He got through but BA refused their original job offer. Subsequently he has not been chasing a job and put it down to middle aged fantasy.

He asked me had I liked flying and would I go back - of course to both (but not the buggeration factor)

[Ex-Ascot]

Fox I also did a flying scholarship but then went straight onto the JP. They wouldn't giver me a University Cadetship so never flew the bullfrog. I was just a social member of ULAS.

I was also very lucky with skilled and experienced pilots to fly with. I was the first F/O on 32 Sqn. It was an experiment to change from flying with two captains. Obviously I was with some of the best. Then The Queen's Flight as an F/O with the very best and all QFIs. Then Royal and VIP F/O on the Ten only three crews in that role flying with Captains who were brought up on the beast and in the role. Then a command in the role and running the operation.

The question is what about these chaps with their Micky Mouse licences, eventually get an ATPL move LHS what experience and skills can they pass on to the zero hour wonder in the RHS?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Naff all. Worse still, many will expect that they can.
The same problem has applied for a long time in the flight schools. Guys get their CPLs after 250 hrs then hours-build by instructing till they can get an airline seat. How good are they? Well, depends who taught them and who's still around. The flight school I worked for had all the Chiefs with oodles of experience (e.g., the CGI was an ex-DC10 test pilot, CFI was ex-USN CFI on P-3s), and the baby instructors had both been taught by them and had them available daily to keep their standards improving. They also had guys like me who could be allocated to the students who were struggling, or could tag along with the baby instructors and offer them some tips.
The key element is the top level of experience. If all the best (traditionally trained) Captains leave because of all the aggro, then the inexperienced captains are the best the F/Os have, and the standard drops precipitously.
The next level up is the rest of the industry. If, like phone companies or utilities, they all drop their standards at the same rate, then the public is stuck with them.
The final level up is the effect on the economy of all these businesses getting worse, which drops productivity. This reduces total wealth production. Given the purpose of all the original changes is to make more money for the already rich top execs and business owners, the reduced wealth gets transferred even faster to the rich and everyone else gets poorer faster. Since for the majority airline travel is a luxury, the airlines will kill their own market. Eventually. The current CEOs are just trying to make sure that it doesn't happen on their watch.

[Slasher]

Sah with Level D/A7 sims it's possible to do all the training inside them (incl OPC and IR) and then fly the real thing for line training. A twat off the street could be checked as a F/O in as little as 18 months!

As I predicted when this MCPL sh!t started, the PIC is virtually on his own when the newbie went straight from sim to line F/O. As a result of the universal bitching the more civilised shonky operators saw fit to include time sitting in the j/s as the captain's sexual advisor. This time varies airline to airline. My current infants would require 900h with their mob. Some are as low as 500h.

The training is airline specific which is why I spent my earlier months at home going over each client airline's SOP.

Their purpose as S/O is to watch listen and learn. He may take the RHS in cruise only, AND with a TRI/TRE capt in the LHS. If only a regular line jock in the left seat he stays put. His duties may also include checking onboard docs, setting up the box under capt or F/O supervision during preflight, ATC radio work, filling in the CFP, taking the crew's food and drink orders and following the captain during his walk around. Each flight must be recorded on a form by him and signed by the capt. This also includes what he learnt that day. I dunno if this includes advising the captain who and how he should shag.

The S/Oship seems to be working. The kids work out what things will kill them and what won't. But when he comes out as a fresh F/O from the sausage factory he's still useless but he'll know the books inside out and backwards. I try to instill a sense of airmanship with my kids which helped my first 2 guys immensely. They're both doing their 900h at present.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Why worry ? ( not really being serious, we should worry a lot ! )

Future aircraft will be crewed by a Captain and a dog. The Captain will be there to feed the dog, and the dog will be there to see that the Captain doesn’t touch ANYTHING.

Click ... "Welcome aboard the World's first fully automatic aircraft. Now sit back and enjoy your flight secure in the knowledge that nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong.... Click.

I was lucky to have been trained initially under the RCAF / NATO scheme, then engaged by BOAC initially as S/O - Navigator, so was able to watch Ex-WWII bomber pilots at work, some had difficulty with more complicated instrument let downs, but pop out of cloud too high, too fast, not correctly configured ( it happened sometimes ) but say "the runway's over there, Sir" ( never forgetting the Sir ) and they would straighten up and fly an immaculate visual, and manual of course, approach and landing. Whilst some could be socially difficult, I accepted that had I sat there being shot at for 5 years, I might be difficult to live with,too !

Thinks ... was I included in a group sent to Canada because Britain wanted it to be known that RAF pilots were the best in the World, or did the RAF want to get rid of the worst of us ? I'll never know ! Suffice to say I enjoyed it all and would do it all again.

[Ex-Ascot]

Speedy:

Thinks ... was I included in a group sent to Canada because Britain wanted it to be known that RAF pilots were the best in the World, or did the RAF want to get rid of the worst of us ? I'll never know ! Suffice to say I enjoyed it all and would do it all again.

On 10 Sqn we always sent our best on exchange. The Americans sent us their worst. They were supposed to do 18 months RHS and 18 LHS. We had one Major who just couldn't make the grade. After 2 yrs RHS the USAF complained. He was put LHS but only two F/Os were allowed to fly with him. I had the misfortune of being one of them. The F/O was unofficially in command. He made all the decisions, checked the paperwork and the cabin supervisor would approach the F/O not the Capt. So, we complained, they sent us this excellent all American sporty type boy. The girls were drooling when they went onto the flight deck. He completed a very successful 3 year tour. When he got back to the States we found out that he had immediately left the Air Force and was living with his boyfriend in LA.

For the record I was never even considered because the exchange was a tanking role which I refused to do. I was happy doing what I was doing anyway.

Above a bit off thread. I still can't believe that young pilots of today can't fly a manual visual circuit in their jet and save time and money. We used to do it all the time into islands in the Med with the A300. Approach from the south for the southerly strip of tarmac and you go 10 nm downwind to pick up the ILS 1,000' downwind round the corner and plonk it on, easy.

[Slasher]

I was taught the real way. After flying heaps of sh!t in GA I joined TAA at 21 years and one month old with 1600h under my belt.

After 2 years on the Dog Whistle I snaffled a DC9 F/O slot through sheer luck, as I bidded for it but no one my seniority did because they thought it was pointless. We were the sh!t of the kings and thought the more senior kings of the shits would get it. But hardly anyone bidded for DC9 Melbourne base. They all wanted Brizzy or 727 or nothin'.

The GS included every nut bolt rivet and pulling apart every PFM box, and the sim was virtually raw data with very little use of the FD and AP. Then line training. HAND FLYING RAW DATA. After I became proficient at it I was told to flick the FD108 on. Thought me Xmas all came at once. Once I was proficient with that, I was allowed to use the A/P. Pure luxury. Was ashamed to take home my month's pay. The same deal on the B727 later. GPWS TCAS and of course FMCs weren't invented then. Christ back then even CRM was being kicked around as a crass idea.

That's what separates we as pilots from the modern kids who are sooo dependent on automation it isn't funny. While I agree modern automation and whizzbang gadgetry are very useful pilot tools to reduce workload if ever the sh!t hits the fan, being DEPENDENT on ithem entirely for NORMAL operations is bloody stupid.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ex-Ascot, you prompt a thought.

We were flying Thomson into Dalman with severe turbulence. Late in the approach the pilot aborted, power in and round we went. The pax were terrified, screaming etc.

He did a quick visual, lower circuit, and landed firmly no dramas to the usual accompaniment of applause.

All SOP by the SLF, was that circuit what a modern pilot would do?

[Boac]

Good grief, no! I'm sure there is an ILS at Dalaman and ATC would vector him out for a 20 mile final in all the bumps.

Shades of a very bumpy flight Stockholm to Malmo, 2000 hour F/O handling, and approaching from the north to land northerly, gin clear, strong northerly and bumpy as **** - and visual at 20 miles. "Are you planning to change your 'Full ILS/Autopilot' briefing, radar vectored to 20 mile final young man?", quoth I. "That's about 60 miles and at least 15 minutes extra flying in this turbulence. I recall you paled at Stockholm when I asked whether you might consider a visual approach". "I'd prefer to stick with the brief, Captain".

Followed by "I have control, I'll fly a visual right-hand circuit, gear down please". Landed 5 minutes later.

[Pontius Navigator]

BOAC, sounds like my son in law. He might have survived to make wg cdr in the RAF but he remained a SSgt engineer to his core. He related during training how his instructor wanted him to do something not prebriefed. I know he argued but not whether he waited till the debrief. I bet they loved him.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I am right in thinking, because of the airline-specific bit, that all MCPL holders have effectively got their entire careers dependent on never saying anything but "Yes Sir!" to anything their airline or Captain asks of them?
I don't think I can fit a list of all the accidents caused by that within the word limit.

[Boac]

Unfortunately, Fox, as you may have gathered here, they rarely have enough experience to question anything - nowadays it is not a question of undue 'deference' but undue 'experience'. The whole system needs a serious overhaul and airlines should be forced to introduce regular 'on-line' training for these folk if the system is to persist. Having (sometimes limited experience) Captains flying with very limited experience F/Os who are basically button pushers/lever movers is far from ideal.