Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

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TheGreenGoblin
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Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#1 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:38 am

Time was when carrying additional fuel was a bean counter's nightmare but now it seems price volatility and regional tariffs and charges make it economic to tanker fuel. I assume that the price differentials and arbitrage opportunities now outweigh the benefits of operating with the lightest possible fuel load?

Can anybody here explain to this old fossil how this arithmetic and the new economics work?

BA claims it...
was common to carry extra fuel for "operational, safety and price reasons".
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50365362

Really? Sure you can never have enough fuel unless you are on fire but that has never previously stopped bean counters moulding operational procedures to push fuel efficiency to the limit and driving for as light a fuel load as possible! What has changed? Look at the Ryanair in flight fuel situation in Spain in 2012 where the lightest load practice came close to causing a disaster.

Ryanair "fuel emergencies'

Edited to say I see that great minds think alike and all that and another poster has raised this subject almost simultaneously with more of a focus on comment on the green/eco side of things. Let me say that I think that while BA might want to green wash their organisation there must be a good economic reason for their current modus operandi and their willingness to risk enraging the eco lobby, hence my question(s) above.
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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#2 Post by Capetonian » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:42 am

Really a storm in a teacup. Many airlines tanker due to poor availability of fuel at turnaround points, not just to save money. In the scale of things, the extra fuel burn is pretty insignificant.

Most people do it in their cars, driving round with more fuel than they need. I never fill any car I'm driving more than half unless I'm in an area where availability might be a concern. On stop start journeys with braking and accelerating, there is considerable vinertia to overcome if you have 40 kg of unnecessary weight on board in a small car.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#3 Post by Slasher » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:47 am

Fuel tankering has been around for yonks. It is based on a Cost Price Differential Index - cost of fuel from dep to destination(s). Sometimes this was up to 3 legs especially if the ports were inland or islands where fuel was usually expensive. One had to take into account MTOW and MLW at the various airports. A good exercise in performance planning and arithmetic.

A tankering leg was a godsend for us in the Equatorial Monsoon season otherwise one would be diverting all over the place every bloody day.

Island Reserve Fuel is usually 2h at holding rate for 5000ft at expected LW as the alternate may be a hell of a long way away.

I’m not interested one tiny f**k in any of this Green *****. Never have never will. Fuel tankering keeps airfares down through less operating costs when used properly.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#4 Post by Woody » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:59 am

PaWoody often had “ discussions “ with Chief Pilot 737’s , argument being that it’s cheaper to tanker some extra fuel than divert due to fuel shortage. Argument ended when aforementioned Chief Pilot had to divert and was snowed in, PaWoody and his pax were back home after operating next flight, took two days for boss man to do same trip :)
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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#5 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:20 am

Slasher, quite right. An ex-RAF Nav, ex-Britannias, joined Britannia when the bought up second hand Brits to start up their business. He thought his job would be an extension of his classical navigation with the RAF.

He left not long after, disillusioned, as his job was fuel economics. Minimum uplift of expensive fuel to reach destination and take maximum uplift of cheap fuel if the cost saving exceeded the cost of carrying it.

These sort of economies apply in most flight regimes now. Use enough thrust to get airborne safely rather than maximum thrust to take off in a shorter distance - saves engine wear as well as fuel. Fly at the most economical altitude to gain better fuel consumption or better tail wind to benefit from a shorter flight time provided you don't burn the savings in the hold.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#6 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:34 am

Some interesting facts and figures looking at the issue from both an economic and green/eco perspective...

Eurocontrol Fuel Tankering

I note that strikes in Portugal caused a plethora of tankering (as opposed to roses) in Portugal earlier this year...

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 73071.html

Another viewpoint on the economic benefits of tankering from a lighter tin perspective...

Tankering benefits...

Very good article from a pilot's perspective...
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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#7 Post by Boac » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:20 am

Generally taken as about 3 - 5% of the tankered fuel per hour of flight depending on aircraft type. Worth remembering that it often pays to 'over-tanker' a little since if you burn more on the way to destination than planned and need after all to 'top up' a few hundred kg, there is often a premium for small uplifts of already expensive fuel.

Other considerations, obviously, are landing weight for the runway planned, extra brake usage (heat related and cost) and lower cruise levels on the early leg/legs + other.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#8 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:22 am

You can have too much fuel if it's sitting in a huge underwing tank and won't transfer.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#9 Post by Slasher » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:24 am

...and also when you’re on fire.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#10 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:25 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:22 am
You can have too much fuel if it's sitting in a huge underwing tank and won't transfer.
And it's on fire! ;)))

Slasher beat me to it... :))
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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#11 Post by Slasher » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:26 am

Great minds / alike alright. ;)))

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#12 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:29 am

I've only had the former, although one Tornado crew had the latter after a lightning strike. The tank wouldn't jettison because they had omitted to make the Master switch live, so they went for the MB tie.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#13 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:32 am

The F4 had a kirk too, IIRC empty the fuselage or was it the wings, and the tanks would not feed.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#14 Post by k3k3 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:49 am

The Greens proposals to tax aviation fuel will only encourage tankering, it is completely counter productive as everyone will just top up where the fuel is tax free, and the extra load will increase the carbon emissions.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#15 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:51 am

When did logic ever stop a government taxing something?
When did the Greens last think something all the way through?

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#16 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:13 pm

k3k3 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:49 am
The Greens proposals to tax aviation fuel will only encourage tankering, it is completely counter productive as everyone will just top up where the fuel is tax free, and the extra load will increase the carbon emissions.
Which is why P&O fill up in Holland rather than at home when they can.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#17 Post by Slasher » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:24 pm

Nail/head the last two posts above PN’s. 👍🏻

As an aside it was government that kept me smoking for so long. I kept doing it just to piss the two-faced bastards off and give the bird to the anti-smoking nazis.

“Oh but the government has declared today as No Smoking day!”
“They did did they? Well...I think I’ll have a big fat smelly cigar then!”
“But the government cares and doesn’t want you to smoke!”
“Good. I’ll make it two cigars!” :p

I gave up when my wife asked me to.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#18 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:27 pm

Slasher wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:24 pm
Nail/head the last two posts above PN’s. 👍🏻
+1

I gave up when my wife asked me to.
I see that you value your health as any man who has irked and faced the risk of the wrath of his wife will testify! The smoking was a minor risk in comparison I'll be bound! ;)))
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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#19 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:30 pm

Slasher wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:24 pm


As an aside it was government that kept me smoking for so long. I kept doing it just to piss the two-faced bastards off and give the bird to the anti-smoking nazis.


I gave up when my wife asked me to.
I disagree on the first. The main reason I didn't take up smoking is the taxes associated with a packet of cigarettes. I don't like to volunteer more taxes

For the second as the say in TOP "Happy wife happy household"

Local airlines don't do any tankering for short domestic sectors even if it can help with the turnarounds.

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Re: Fuel Tankering (An economic question)?

#20 Post by Woody » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:44 am

Those arguing against the Third runway at Perry Oaks International never seem to take this into account :-o
Most mornings over Heathrow there is a queue of aircraft holding as they wait for the 0600 curfew to end. At times this builds from around 0545 and often involves 12 or so aircraft. I did it myself for a couple of decades so tried to calculate my "extra" carbon emisions based on average air holding times - I ran out of zeros on my calculator.

This holding is far more damaging than tankering and I did try to avoid it by slowing down en-route but arriving at the back of that queue still brought the dreaded " take up the hold at Lambourne - maintain FL 160 - at least 20 mins delay"
Sorry about stealing from TOP, but I know several pilots who use this argument.
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