NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

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NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#1 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:58 am

I know that this is the Daily Snail but it is reported to have come from The Times.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... areas.html

It is said that the Vulcanair P68 is not agile enough for urban areas and can't land on most airfields as they are not long enough. It may not be as agile as a chopper but can operate in most weather conditions and can land on rough short runways. So what are they talking about?

http://www.vulcanair.com/files/files/sp ... -03-14.pdf
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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#2 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:47 pm

I think I saw this on FR24 a few weeks back. Out of Finningley, lots of orbits around Grimsby area, transit to Rotherham and repeat.

How does payload, endurance and speed compare with a similar role helicopter? I have seen the police help around here doing exactly the same, orbits not hovering.

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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#3 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:52 pm

There have been long running annual NPAS threads on Rotorheads on TOP since at least 2015, this year's one is "NPAS News 2021". Basically the whole of NPAS looks like a gigantic cockup with the P68 the latest in a line of cockups.

The powers that be have cut the numbers of helicopters and bases so much that it seems the helicopters spend most of their time transitting to and from incidents rather than being on task. That thread is worth a read - I won't try and summarise the problems, t'would take me too long! The annual threads go back to one in 2015 with "UK NPAS - The Decline". Can't bring myself to post TOP references - you'll have to search!

For a really critical article on NPAS in general, including the P68, read page 7 of Police Aviation News of Jamuary 2021: http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrob ... ry2021.pdf
P68.JPG
P68.JPG (12.52 KiB) Viewed 4118 times
From Ex-A's Daily Mail article:
Hailing the step a 'milestone in the development of NPAS', he said the planes would allow for operations in bad weather in which helicopters struggle.
Ha Ha! =)) =)) =)) =)) Doesn't that show you the complete lack of aviation knowledge of the people making these decisions.
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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#4 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:39 pm

Bring back the Optica!

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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#5 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:28 pm

That was another Police cockup. I think it was operated by Hampshire Police and flown by a PPL Police officer. He orbited an incident and eventually overbanked and spun in.
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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#6 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:33 pm

Didn't the hangar catch fire as well?

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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#7 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:40 pm

Yes, arson I think, at the Old Sarum factory.
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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#8 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:08 am

The Optica was on static display at the very last Farnborough airshow, and was still being touted as the "observation aircraft of the future" over 25 years after the fatal police crash!. All a bit sad really. This majority of this kind of close observation work will be done by drones soon , although I am sure there will be the need for manned fixed and rotor aircraft for specific missions as well. That Daily Mail article contained even more hogswash than normal!
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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#9 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:21 am

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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#10 Post by Boac » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:17 am

I always thought the Optica was a potentially good airframe for the job, and I knew one of the development pilots. A sad story.

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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#11 Post by CharlieOneSix » Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:54 pm

To show the idiocy of decision making by those in the Police who were promoted beyond their level of competency, here's a post about the P68 from elsewhere by one who for many years was involved in UK Police helicopters:
Not so much a problem with take-off and landing distance - but they stubbornly and stupidly choose an aircraft (initially designed well back into the last century) that uses AVGAS engines, rather than modern turbines. Most smaller, general aviation airfields where that fuel is still available are closed after dark. Larger airfields with longer operating hours often don't have AVGAS available out of daylight hours (because no-one else wants it). Filling the fuel tanks to cater for longer sorties means that only one observer can be carried, because of all up weight restraints. The previous helicopters could carry two. A high winged aircraft with small windows where the "job" is hidden as soon as the aircraft rolls into a turn to orbit was another big error.

As far as "all weather" is concerned, these aircraft had no advantage over the incumbent helicopters. They had no icing clearance so exactly the same weather limitations applied. This had to be obtained later, at the user's further cost. But the NPAS hierarchy knew best, ignoring the advice of those who actually knew what they were talking about and sacked the ones who spoke out.

It's time an inquiry is held into exactly who was pulling the strings with respect to the highly flawed decision to purchase these aircraft and the connections between them and the aircraft manufacturer.
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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#12 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:18 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:52 pm
There have been long running annual NPAS threads on Rotorheads on TOP since at least 2015, this year's one is "NPAS News 2021". Basically the whole of NPAS looks like a gigantic cockup with the P68 the latest in a line of cockups.

The powers that be have cut the numbers of helicopters and bases so much that it seems the helicopters spend most of their time transitting to and from incidents rather than being on task. That thread is worth a read - I won't try and summarise the problems, t'would take me too long! The annual threads go back to one in 2015 with "UK NPAS - The Decline". Can't bring myself to post TOP references - you'll have to search!

For a really critical article on NPAS in general, including the P68, read page 7 of Police Aviation News of Jamuary 2021: http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrob ... ry2021.pdf
P68.JPG

From Ex-A's Daily Mail article:
Hailing the step a 'milestone in the development of NPAS', he said the planes would allow for operations in bad weather in which helicopters struggle.
Ha Ha! =)) =)) =)) =)) Doesn't that show you the complete lack of aviation knowledge of the people making these decisions.
That link you pasted is very interesting, not least for the NPAS piece. One would have thought that the helicopter would be the most versatile aircraft for the multiplicity of missions/roles most police forces have to undertake. Something clearly rotten in the state of Denmark ref. the P68 methinks! One would imagine that a judicious mixture of aircraft types to cover the relevant strategic objectives in the most efficient way, would favour the number of helicopters needed vis a vis fixed wing aircraft, which when all is said and done can't land where the action is!
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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#13 Post by FD2 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:41 pm

To continue what C16 has been writing, a friend who was flying for NPAS at the time the decision was made told me there was huge internal dissent and criticism of their management at the time, but a lot of aircrew preferred to keep their jobs as those that were too outspoken usually lost theirs. It wasn't just the wrong choice of fixed wing v rotary wing, the wrong fixed wing aircraft, the wrong base and what's not mentioned so far is the huge cost of a brand new large hangar which probably cost over £20 million to build. The decision must have been agreed between NPAS management and the Home Office (on behalf of all the various police forces around the UK?).

Will heads roll? Will resignations happen? I doubt it. Just another example of a stupid procurement decision - this time one concerning civilian lives most probably lost after the decision to close NPAS rotary bases to pay for this fixed wing fiasco, rather than the more common ones concerning servicemen's lives.

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Re: NPAS Vulcanair P68 Problems

#14 Post by 1DC » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:32 am

WE used to have a police helicopter at HUY,our local airport, and would see it around most days then we were told it was being moved to Wakefield to make more efficient use of it, we never saw it again. Then their was the big announcement about Vulcanair and we saw it occasionally, now we don't see it. Now they tell us it is useless and nobody likes it. Wonder what comes next. :-\

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