Reliant on automation?

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MoreAviation

Reliant on automation?

#1 Post by MoreAviation » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:37 pm

The FAA thinks that pilots may be over reliant on automated systems at the expense of hand flying skills. I think they may be right.

Before your next flight review or instrument proficiency check, you'll want to read over a new FAA Advisory Circular that contains guidance for instructors on special areas of emphasis for general aviation pilots.

http://www.flyingmag.com/faa-updates-flight-review-criteria?cmpid=enews011416&spPodID=030&spMailingID=24451022&spUserID=MTE4NDIwNDYzMzI1S0&spJobID=721399143&spReportId=NzIxMzk5MTQzS0

The FAA is concerned that pilots' hand-flying skills might not always be up to acceptable standards and that many may suffer from an overreliance on automation and electronic systems.

"The FAA reminds CFIs conducting flight reviews and IPCs to ensure that a pilot under evaluation is proficient with the automated system and knows what to do if it fails," the AC says.

Loss of control and traffic pattern operations will be areas of special emphasis on flight reviews, with CFIs encouraged to ensure pilots can safely hand-fly in the most common phases of flight likely to lead to loss of control.

The FAA also recommends in the AC that pilots develop personal currency programs to ensure their skills don't erode between flight reviews.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#2 Post by rgbrock1 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:03 pm

If they were still alive I'd imagine the flight crew of AF447 would tend to agree.
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#3 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:22 pm

This situation is untenable. Automation is to reduce pilot work load and in low visibilty to plonk the jet on the runway. When I flew for Monarch the management actively encouraged hand flying. Many times we would fly visual circuits. Good flying skill practice and fuel economy. A generation of pilots who can't hand fly including on instruments are not 'pilots' they are system operators.
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#4 Post by Boac » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:30 pm

Agreed. To find yourself sitting there (co-pilot's leg) with an airfield gin clear at 1 o'clock 5 miles with no other traffic and have Bloggs elect to fly a 30 mile (ground distance) full ILS pattern in autopilot..........................aaargh!

You would think even the bean-counters would understand the potential savings in time and fuel and ENCOURAGE the skills. X(

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#5 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:22 am

Boac, perhaps this should be pointed out to them.

Personally I would overrule in that situation. Diplomaticly of course. Like 'you tosser just point it at the bloody runway'. Never was very good at this CRM crap. :YMPARTY:
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#6 Post by Boac » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:29 am

overrule in that situation........Never was very good at this CRM crap.
- yes, as I have done on occasions when I just could not take any more :)) but it needs care! If you are not careful you become the 'Captain who won't let us land' and other Chinese whispers. I have spent a lot of 'debrief' time on night-stops helping the young ones learn how to build a visual from 250kts/4000', say, - to good advantage, but in my latter days it became apparent that the newer ones were actually 'frightened' of anything but an autopilot flown, ATC assisted manoeuvre. I had also heard it said that they had never seen a Captain 'do that' when I took over to fly the circuit - probably a function of the 'younger' ones reaching the left-hand seat with a similar conditioning?

A lot of the blame, I think, lies with first-line pilot management in some cases where the concept of 'on-line continuation' training is lost. I had one keen and able young man in my last airline who disappeared to a base where this was absent and his 'normal' flights were multi-hour LNAV/VNAV - sometimes to West Africa (with the occasional 'resting' Captains!!) with a few days slip by the pool and then the same back. A year later we were crewed on a contract in Scandinavia for 4-sector/45minute/quick-turns and he was totally unable to provide useful support as P2, and as P1 was not thinking ahead either. He had just 'gone-off' due to poor man-management and the wrong routines. A dreadful waste of ability.

As for 'pointing this out to management/bean-counters' - I know you were just joking..............you know which way this business is going.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#7 Post by 500N » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:34 am

I hate to say this but you lot scare me, not that I scare easy but to say a pilot
Can't manually fly an aircraft they are flying is a worry.

What happens if you have a fault with the auto pilot etc and the bits don't work ?

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#8 Post by Boac » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:08 am

500 - it is an on-going problem, much discussed elsewhere. They CAN fly the aeroplane - they are 'discouraged' from doing so by insurers and accountants (and this inevitably feeds down to managers who write the 'orders') who believe the mantra that the automatic aeroplane is the safest. As it indeed is, until something not in its 'programme' happens.

The thing is that ALL these guys and girls have flown aeroplanes without automatics during their training. They just need the environment where they can maintain these early skills, and that is what is blatantly missing. They are not inherently 'bad' pilots - they are just being trained to be! It is those you should be concerned about, not the pilots.

This unfortunately feeds down to the 'Airbus problem' we are seeing. A brilliant concept and very clever. We are, however, seeing a frightening number of events where it 'fails' and the humans are not able to regain control. Major airlines like Air France having pilots who cannot recognise a simple 'stall' - at the back of their minds is the mantra that 'you cannot stall an Airbus', so a stall is the last thing on their confused minds. Is that their fault?

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#9 Post by Sisemen » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:24 am

Continuation training on light twins??

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#10 Post by Boac » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:22 am

Yes - suggested by many, but perhaps a more agile single would be better?

One of the problems in Europe, anyway, is the 'dumbing down' of qualifications (presumably driven by airlines) to allow an 'MPL' (Multi-pilot licence) as the entry point to an airline job. A qualification to work as part of a multi-crew aircraft. Less cost/time content in the training syllabus. Thus new pilot arrives in the seat with far less experience. I understand the US still has a ?1500? hour requirement. In Europe, I think around 3-400 hours TOTAL flying will do. (I stand to be corrected there!) Throw in the 'dumbing down' of initial basic training - no spinning, limited stalling, and it starts to look like a mess.

BA have just announced slots for 350 more pilots - they will easily find these, of suitable quality. They are out there. Airlines like ex-Ascot's Monarch, and the other established UK airlines have good stuff in their cockpits. I have much respect for Easyjet and Ryanair pilots who cope so well with demanding rapid-fire sectors without major incidents. BA will soak up these. The 'gaps' will have to be filled, working 'down' the tree, of course - needing more 'newbies' with limited experience and MPLs, and with more rapid right to left moves to fill the gaps. Not a good scenario.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#11 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:38 pm

Sitting by our lagoon in Bots with a beer and glad one is just drawing the airline pension not having to work to earn it any more! ***** job. All our kid bush pilots here are working their backsides off to get the hours to join an airline. They will not listen to me.

Sorry thread drift.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#12 Post by reddo » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:30 pm

Funnily enough, my last sim had a fair bit of hand flying in it. Specific exercises to get the scan working etc. Quite fun. Our company insists we practice hand flying when appropriate. I have done revenue flights where the A/P has failed and it would have been too costly both in time and money to cancel the flight(s).

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#13 Post by Exaviator » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:25 am

I know that times have changed and flight ops management currently put a lot of emphasis on auto flight but I could never understand pilots - in particular the younger ones - who did not want to hand fly the aircraft.

Right up to the day that I retired I hand flew most departures, at least until passing 20,000ft, and usually until reaching mach transition.

The same goes for approach and landing. Unless I had to give one to the auto pilot to maintain Cat-3 regency requirements, or I was particularly feeling tired at the end of a long flight, it was mostly hands on from 10,000ft down.

Boeing built aircraft, they were meant to be flown...

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#14 Post by boing » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:09 pm

I agree entirely with Exaviator and I followed similar practices.
I flew one leg of about 2.5 hours manually and at the end of it the co-pilot asked me what I was trying to prove - the concept of going back to basic skills was completely beyond him.

The competency problem has several causes that interacted to create the present situation. As an FAA designated check pilot on the 27 I saw and lived through it all.

Minority, and particularly transgender, hiring was a considerable factor. When the airlines in the US decided to "normalise" gender quotas across the industry there was a shortage of qualified female pilots. The first ladies who wanted to be commercial pilots had truly been given a bad deal but they persevered and when they were finally hired most of them turned out to be excellent pilots and great crew members. Unfortunately the pool of these qualified individuals was very small and the required continued female hiring led to the intake of some real rubbish. One lady I flew with had only ever flown for her father's charter outfit and the experience she claimed there was suspect. The problem was that under the conditions at the time you virtually could not fire a minority individual for poor performance. In at least one case I know of the individual received additional simulator training at each annual check ride until she passed the check whereas a regular line only got one shot at the check or he/she was in trouble. The person involved had previously sued the company for discrimination.
I am not picking on female pilots here, as I said most of the early female hires were great and many of the later hires were great also but we took on far too many incompetents in the mix in order to meet quotas.

So, what does a company do that has a training problem and wants to keep expenses down - it puts more emphasis on auto-flight.

A further factor was training center staffing. When I joined the airline the instructors at our training center were experienced senior pilots. Experienced pilots are very expensive to use on "mere" (as the company saw it) training. Over the years the experience required for various training jobs was reduced until your initial training on a new aircraft consisted of completing computer based groundschool followed by simulator instruction by someone that was only nominally qualified on the aircraft. Costs fell but so did the quality of training. Training for emergencies changed from "there's your problem, handle it" to "don't do anything at all until you have run the checklist, phoned the company to discuss the problem, talked to all the crew members on the aircraft front and back so you all know about the problem, developed an agreed action plan, had it approved by the company legal department etc etc". Now, I know the advantages of proper emergency management but what I am saying is that over a period of time moving from a pilot-centric flight management to company-centric flight management reduces a pilot's ability to handle a non-standard situation because it reduces the practice needed in that area. If you have never been introduced to crisis management you will never apply it correctly when the need arises.
For example, when I was a Captain on the 27 our minimum approach decision height under low-visibility conditions in the real aircraft was 100 feet flown with the auto-pilot engaged. In your annual check you had to perform the same approach flying manually so that you had practiced in case of a situation where you had to land in bad conditions with the autopilot inoperative (emergency authority). Unlikely to happen but it was a great confidence building manoeuvre. Bet it does not happen now.

If I were to put the causes of the present competency problem in order it would be:
The reduction in airline training standards (driven by cost cutting) permitted by a too compliant FAA.
Over-confidence in the ability of highly automated aircraft to solve reliability and training problems.
Hiring practices that discriminate against best qualified applicants (amplified by the attitude of the legal system).
Lack of operationally qualified management in the airline corporations.
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#15 Post by A Lutra Continua » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:43 pm

What he said.

This bit...

Hiring practices that discriminate against best qualified applicants (amplified by the attitude of the legal system).


...Is particularly dangerous. The best candidate for the job is no longer the person being hired, instead we have the practice of pay-to-fly and companies insisting candidates pay for their own type ratings. Funds available to pay for hours and ratings take precedence over experience and aptitude, leading to a decline in the standard of flight deck crew being hired by many operators.

In addition to pressure from the political and social angle.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#16 Post by Slasher » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:40 am

I remember being cleared for a 3 leg vis app on a nice clear day into a quiet country airport in the Frogmobile. No ILS no VOR no bullsh!t.

The 500hr wonder in the RS was punching buttons like crazy. I'd briefed on a visual approach and asked WTF was he doing with the SEC FLT PLN. Turns out he was punching in waypoints for the VA!

I kindly told him to fcuk off and leave the bloody box alone! X(

After landing I said to him the difference between a pilot, me, and a destroyer of flying enjoyment, you, is the fact you need a fcuking box to fly the basic of basic flying maneuvers. Keep your mits off the box when I'm flying the bloody thing, and if you want any mindless and unnecessary automaton sh!t like that on your leg then you load it yourself! [-(

I hate flying with these kids - they're all automation-dependent dicks.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#17 Post by Pinky the pilot » Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:33 am

Slasher; And what was the reaction of the FO to your 'debriefing?' :D

Message received, understood and something learned from it, I would hope.
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#18 Post by boing » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:53 am

Nice idea but it does not work that way Pinky.
The company writes the manual saying that ALL aids will be set to ensure a safe approach so technically young doofus is correct.

The unintended consequence of which is that competency in pure visual approaches starts to fall.
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#19 Post by Slasher » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:27 am

No Pinky he pouted for the rest of the day.

The one thing guys in our Ops manual that puts everything in place is a bit that says "Use only that level of automation that is required for the task. Higher levels or unnecessary FMGC inputs can result in excess crew workload."

After shutdown Pinks I showed him that section of the Ops manual and also yanked out the Scarebus diagram for a visual approach. I then asked the doofus where does it say about sticking all that crap in the box for a simple bloody visual approach?

He said he was trying to help make it easier for me.

So I asked him why did I flick the switch on downwind so I had only VORs on the ND?

He didn't know. And the VOR was out.

I asked him if I had to do a go-around, what would I do? Use the published IFR one or simply do another circuit retaining flap 1?

He didn't know.

That's where the after landing debrief stopped. Period. I refuse to waste any further breath on a non-pilot computer operator.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#20 Post by Boac » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:46 am

He didn't know.
-
well..
1) Does your company SOP SPECIFY the required method of g/a from a visual at that or all airfields?
2) Did you:
a) If so, run through the SOP with 'doofus' in your brief?
b) If not, brief it with doofus?
3) Does it occur to you that, without any forthcoming explanation from 'Old Git', that 'doofus' may have been a little puzzled by your selection of a navaid that was u/s?

As a ?'Line Captain'? you missed a great 'line training' opportunity to help this 'doofus'. Training does not end at Final Line Check.

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