Reliant on automation?

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Slasher

Re: Reliant on automation?

#21 Post by Slasher » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:23 am

This particular doofus wasn't interested.

There are some very good F/Os who want to go better than just the training they received. It's them I help and offer advice.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#22 Post by Boac » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:05 am

This particular doofus wasn't interested.
- I know the problem. Often the 'interest' has been squashed by successive line captains and needs careful re-kindling.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#23 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:12 pm

Boac, I see your point but Slasher would have been up half the night trying to re-program the guy probably to no avail. It is the basic training that is at fault. If an airline wants to change their mind set it is down to the training Captains in the Sim backed up with company policy and SOPs. As I have said before, I am very concerned about the up and coming so called airline 'pilots'.
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#24 Post by Boac » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:46 pm

Me too, Ex-A, but we still do not have an answer to post #20, and it would not have taken 'half the night' to brief a visual, including "Runway and extended centreline only in the FMC please" or "Nothing in the FMC" if so desired. would it?

'On-line' continuation training or whatever you want to call it is not done in a huge 'half the night' block anyway - I'm sure you know that - it is about passing on knowledge' tips/help/tech etc to those who need it, which of course is all. I cannot believe Monarch did not take the furtherance of F/O skills seriously?

By the way, Slash, what is "a 3 leg vis app"?

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#25 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:45 pm

Boac, yes indeed but I think Slasher and I have about the same tolerance levels for training. After The Queen's Flight where by some fluke I held the highest flying category possible the powers that be wanted to send me to CFS. My boss said something along the lines of 'don't be so silly'. So they let me continue with my same pax but long haul on The Ten.

Monarch Airlines training and encouragement of development could not be faulted. But in my day we didn't have system operators we had proper pilots.

3 leg: downwind, base, finals? Only a guess.Long finals, short finals and impact maybe.
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#26 Post by Boac » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:59 pm

I have never thought of it as 'training' but 'sharing and guiding'? One example was the complete lack of radar handling in the training syllabus. I had one F/O in BA who knew he had to switch it on, but flew from Athens to mid-Germany with it pointing 5 up on a CAVOK day until I queried wtf he was doing!

Yes, training is another thing altogether. I was dragged kicking and screaming to CFS from AFTS with a posting to Hunters in my pocket - and was seriously 'interviewed' at CFS for appearing to be trying to fail the course.................. :))

I would, however, be keen to know how Slash graduated from 'doofus' to 'Chief' without help from his Captains!

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#27 Post by Slasher » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:12 pm

He didn't know.
-
well..
1) Does your company SOP SPECIFY the required method of g/a from a visual at that or all airfields?
2) Did you:
a) If so, run through the SOP with 'doofus' in your brief?
b) If not, brief it with doofus?
3) Does it occur to you that, without any forthcoming explanation from 'Old Git', that 'doofus' may have been a little puzzled by your selection of a navaid that was u/s?

As a ?'Line Captain'? you missed a great 'line training' opportunity to help this 'doofus'. Training does not end at Final Line Check.


Since you seem so anxious about a reply to post number 20, boac....

1. Yes it does, including go around with inoperative primary navaid for missed approach purposes depending on vis and ceiling. This is basic pure and simple. If you were indeed a Boy Overseas After Crumpet and exRAF you know damn well that it is.

2a. If you mean the approach and landing brief prior to descent, of course I did. The SOP is assumed to be already known by both, and only briefed for any expected variance, such as gear and/or flap selections out of normal sequence, in normal or emergency pre-briefings. Questions from the PNF are then answered.

2b. Not applicable.

3. Because the ND was a bloody mess with lines and PBDs all over the bloody place, I selected VOR on the ND EFIS* selector, as I was flying a purely VISUAL approach (ie with my eyeballs looking outside of the cockpit 95% of the time) which was far less of a distraction. Before I selected it I told doofus the ND is too bloody distracting. That must've given him a very subtle hint! Dimming down said ND to zilch is not permitted by SOP.

* selector knob on the 320. If you don't know what that is look it up. I gave up training when I joined my new employer. My training days are over and I'm not about to start it again here.

(At TOP ever wondered why I don't make TL posts any more on 320 threads under my new non de plume? Because I'm burnt the fcuk out with training that's why, and I just want to enjoy plain old line flying before I retire in a few years and go back home to my old trusty steam driven PA18 - no EFIS, no FMbloodyCGs... and no doofi!)

As for your last enquiry - Yes as mentioned above I'm now an ordinary line captain and I thank Christ I am as I was burnt out training kids on how to be pilots iso computer operators with my last 2 employers. And FYI the doofus that day, like so many of his mates, became airline pilots for the salary.

However, that said, there are a handful of new F/Os who love flying for the sake of it - they beg me to let 'em practice raw data TOs and landings, visual approaches, take out the A/P passing RVSM LLs, and usually ask for feedback on any stuffups. They are intelligent young blokes who are hamstrung from being unable to get any hands-on in GA, and what will kill them and what won't. But it's NOT training - it's about good fellas with flying in their blood who want to be better pilots, and that's a hell of a difference. Again if you're indeed an ex-Crumpet boy you know exactly what I mean.

Yes Ex-A it would've taken me a swag of hours and he wasn't the slightest bit interested.

Nuff said.

Pinky... see what ya started by sending me that PM mate? Never again unless it's a thread about boobs, Spits, Super Cubs or DH82s!

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#28 Post by Boac » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:05 pm

Thanks. I understand.

Can you explain what a 3 leg visual is, though?

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#29 Post by Slasher » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:46 pm

Image

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#30 Post by Boac » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:06 pm

Ah! A Visual from downwind! Simples.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#31 Post by Pinky the pilot » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:15 am

Pinky... see what ya started by sending me that PM mate? Never again unless it's a thread about boobs, Spits, Super Cubs or DH82s!


Aww....come on Slasher; :D Struth, I actually learned something over the last few posts! :-bd

Re your future 'requirements;' I'll see what I can do! :D

As for the subject of the thread; Although it certainly doesn't measure up with the Aircraft you fly; Back when I was cruising around the SA/QLD outback as a second Pilot doing Mail runs in Chieftains, any chance I was given to fly a leg I always handflew it.
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#32 Post by boing » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:05 am

I have never agreed with the "go around thrust" on a visual miss unless it is interpreted to mean "adequate for the go around" rather than "go around thrust as per instrument approach". I have seen more screwed up level offs and more semi-aerobatic flying than I like to remember (fortunately most of it in the simulator) through using far more thrust than you need on a visual go around. It is almost guaranteed that the aircraft is going to be very light and usually a visual go around altitude is going to be less than the instrument altitude. A handful of power, watch the attitude visually, nice gentle clean-up = no nervous passengers.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#33 Post by Slasher » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:41 am

Pinks I was flogging PA-31s around NT and FNQ before you had pubes on your nuts. Those Chieftains came with Century 2 dual axis which never worked anyway, and even on those rare occasions when it did we nicknamed it The Hijack Box because the friggin' thing once engaged would peel off and try to take you somewhere else. So we hand flew everything without complaint. In and out at max gross into places even choppers feared to go (ever heard of Pulumpa?)

Radar was for poofters back then so we hand flew in every bit of weather - frigging cyclones, embedded thunderies, fog (icing thank christ was never a problem unless you had to do a charter down the Deep South like ADL or SYD) - but sh!t did we learn quickly how to survive - and single pilot IFR!

Anyway when I joined TAA on the 20 ton dog whistle with only 2500 hours under me belt I learnt quickly about icing. But knowing the survival basics meant what I really had to learn was how to fly with another guy as boss (CRM wasn't invented then) and operate as an airline cockpit team.

Next was the DC9-30. My first jet. Training, as you would expect, was exacting and thorough. Day One thru Five was jet engine theory and operation (even though everybody had their BGT) and Company Swept Wing Jet Transport theory lasted a full 10 days even though DCA had no such requirement. All this before we opened a bloody system book of the aeroplane! Sim was thorough but well taught but the pace was fast.

Line training wasn't a breeze - it wasn't until my 10th leg of line training I was allowed to engage the autopilot after my manual skills were practiced and acceptable to the training captain. And back then those guys knew how to fly and how to impart knowledge. None of this modern day girly bullsh!t - it was a proud day when the trainer abused the hell out of you if you, say, stuffed up the DME arrival into CNS at 320 knots - because that meant he knew you were at the standard but not demonstrating it.

And remember we didn't have GPWS, nor TCAS nor computers. AN had Omega in their 9s and our 727s had INS but in the TAA 9 everything was steam driven.

Next was the 727 but this post is becoming digressive. Point I'm making is that every generation of pilot believe the next generation can't fly for sh!t (indeed I was abused by an ex-AN retired DC-6 captain who thought we were a young bunch of rabid homosexuals for having FD-108s and APs that could fly ILSs right down to 300ft! I can still hear the old bugger saying us gays wouldn't have a hope of flying a VAR in a Southerly Buster in our fancy-shmancy jets.

But the last 2 generations.... they ARE a big difference and I put it down to a few main reasons -

1. Over reliance on automation in order to reduce training costs brought on by...

2. Proliferation of these lousy shonky low cost bogan carriers which, collectively, have consequently brought down the standard of the airline industry as a whole starting in the early 90s, in concert with

2a. Airlines run by beancounters and non-aviation execs who are only concerned with huge bonuses, and

3. The intrusion of bloody lawyers which means EVERY possible scenario has to be covered in some book somewhere (most evident in Frogmobiles but creeping into Boeing manuals since 2005). And I might add written for the lowest common 200hr snowflake denominator.

4. The careful selection of potential candidates during the exhaustive interview process. All the majors back then - Ansett, TAA and the White Rat - were masters at picking up and weeding out those who only wanted the job for the salary or wank value. Nowadays it appears to me if a candidate can pass a Class One Medical and has learnt to read and write he's in.

Ok I'm done. My fault for making my first post on this thread anyway. At this stage of my life I should stay clear of 'em. But again - no more requests mate unless it's tits (big ones) Spitfires,Tiger Moths or Super Cubs.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#34 Post by Pinky the pilot » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:27 am

Thanks Slasher. FWIW I tend to agree with your observations.

Pinks I was flogging PA-31s around NT and FNQ before you had pubes on your nuts.

Dunno 'bout that Mate, as I'm 62! :D

no more requests mate unless it's tits (big ones) Spitfires,Tiger Moths or Super Cubs.

As I mentioned earlier, I'll see what I can do! :ymdevil: :D

Thinks to self; Now where did I see that piccy of the Sheila with big boobs sitting on the nose of that Mk IX Spit?? :-?
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Re: Reliant on automation?

#35 Post by Slasher » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:36 pm

Sorry mate I thought you were a few years younger than me. Oh well... looks like I was the later pube-bloomer then!

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#36 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:19 pm

last year,in the USA, having never experienced a Glass Cockpit instrument panel I paid for an hour in a new LSA, just for kicks. The instructor said that when flying with a student he carries a piece of A.4 sized paper and places it over the display, and says - now look out of the fckngiu window !!

Once got flying in my Turbulent, at lift off the ASI showed full scale fast, around 140 kts. ( no, no way would the beast fly that fast, but that was the scale of the instrument ) WTF ? Oh yes, that red flag from the pitot tube, normally visible on the rear parcel shelf during flight, wasn't ! Fcuk it. However, was flying and not stalling so ease the nose forward to gain a bit of fat and continue climbing until the cows looked the right size, turn downwind, fly usual power settings and attitude, land.

Why did I take off with the cover on the pitot tube ? Another story, guess I'm not alone. ?

Ex-Crumpet ( you said it ) pilot .... towards the end, one of my colleagues said .... "Do you remember those ex-WWII Captains that we started flying with, couldn't fly an instrument let-down to save their lives ( some of them - see below ) but pop out of cloud too high, too fast, not lined up and say ... the runway's over there, Sir ( never forgetting the Sir ! ) and they'd straighten up and fly a perfect visual approach to a manual landing, but these young lads that we are training -experts at Space Invaders and other computer game - can probably fly an instrument approach better than we ever could, or maybe ever will, but become visual at minima and have to land a real aeroplane on the real Earth, and they lose it, somewhere there has to be a happy medium -that was probably us !!"

One such WWII ace left London for Prestwick one night, "bird-dogged" ( i.e. never allowed for drift ) into every NDB enroute then couldn't handle the drift on the ILS into Prestwick ( which could be pretty aggressive ) and diverted back to London. Fact.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#37 Post by 500N » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:28 pm

Sorry if this is a dumb question.

If the pitot tube is covered, is their any other way of telling what speed the aircraft is doing ?

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#38 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:44 pm

If the pitot tube is covered, is their any other way of telling what speed the aircraft is doing ?


Apply the forecast W/v to the GPS groundspeed. ( sorry, shouldn't admit the presence of GPS ! )

With no GPS and on a long trip, take the time between two known ground features, measure the distance off your chart - You are carrying a local chart, aren't you ? - and use the circular slide rule (aka the back of the E6B computer that you are carrying, or equivalent, aren't you ? ) to work out your groundspeed.

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#39 Post by 500N » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:52 pm

I'm not a pilot and my first time "Navigating" (Mil famil flight in helo for Officers in case they had to do a recce"
was a dismal failure - when asked "where are we", the spot I pointed to was passed a few minutes before :D

Thanks for the answer.

I read you "nosed down" ? and was wondering if stalling was a big factor, especially with the way
airliners seem to fall out of the sky with misinformation !

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Re: Reliant on automation?

#40 Post by ExSp33db1rd » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:13 am

I read you "nosed down" ? and was wondering if stalling was a big factor,


Yes ! The aircraft had only just started flying, so was only a few knots above the stall but I had no idea how much,or how little, but as I was currently "safe" I eased forward to gain a few more knots and then maintained that attitude until reaching what I considered was the circuit height of 1,000 agl. then flew level and set the normal cruise power, didn't care what the precise speed was, it couldn't have been far off the desired speed. For the descent to the runway I set the descent power that I always use, never idle -that's another story of engine failure ! - and the RPM gauge was working of course - so just eyeballed the descent profile, deliberately aiming a bit further than normal into a very long, for a Turbulent, runway and maintained the same power until entering the flare for touchdown. No problem.

Why was I in this predicament ? Never intended to fly that day, had gone out to do some engine maintenance, then decided to see if it would start OK, always a challenge but it fired up first swing, Oh, what the hell, a nice evening let's just do a quick circuit, so climbed aboard and taxied out. The Rest Is History. Lessson learned. I didn't have a GPS with me on that occasion. Student pilots are often asked to fly a circuit with the instruments covered up, to gain exactly that experience, but never solo ! The instructor usually has a crafty way of keeping an eye on the vital instruments.

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