Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

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TheGreenGoblin
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#81 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:48 am

I have followed up on the question's relating to FAR's etc. and a US based commercial helicopter pilot explained the generic setup to me in this way...
In FAA land you have various rules broken into parts that apply to you as a company depending upon what you are doing.

Part 91--general rules, you could go buy a helicopter and start selling rides, or a wealthy company, Pfizer for example, can buy a fleet of airplanes and helicopters to ferry their own executives around, as long ass they did not take fare paying customers from point A to B. This would fall under part 91, no further certificates required. All private flying and training and for example, dead heading back after dropping off passengers. Corporate owned aircraft fly under part 91--the CEO for example is not a fare paying passenger, it is in effect his own aircraft.

Part 135--this is mostly small operators taking fare paying passengers from point A to point B, a wealthy business man for example. After meeting some pretty stringent requirements, having training programs etc, the FAA would evaluate and the company would be issued a certificate to operate . The certificate Operational Specifications, (ops specs), are issued in addition to the actual certificate, by the FAA to the company and list out the rules under which they are certified to operate. One of those is VFR or IFR. So, if a company is issued "VFR only ops specs" it means they can only operate flying fare paying passengers in VFR conditions. (Or Special VFR).

Part 121 is the airlines, huge regulations etc that we do not need to get into for this discussion.

How does this all fit in:

Lets say John is CEO of Pfizer and they own a Sikorsky S-76, certificated to fly under IFR and his pilots are IFR rated.

John calls up in the morning and tell his pilots he wants to fly to a football game 100 miles away. They can, no ops specs needed. They can fly IFR. But, on this day, when they get to the hangar their S-76 is down for maintenance.

They call brand X charter company at the airport and pay them to fly John in Brand X's S-76. Brand X has a part 135 certificate with Ops Specs issued for VFR only.

Luckily the weather is good & Brand X flies him to the game VFR.

John elects to stay for a day or two and so Brand X decides to bring their helicopter back to base with no fare paying passenger on-board, (and Pfizer is paying).

The weather has now deteriorated, and they need to fly IFR to get home, they do not have ops specs for IFR, however, they are now operating under Part 91, dead heading and can fly IFR as the aircraft is certificated for it and their pilot is instrument rated. (Hospital EMS helicopters do this all the time....they are under part 135 with a patient on-board and part 91 without.)
This is very interesting and may give some clue to the setup in the current Kobe Bryant accident case.
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#82 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:17 am

Some good advice on how to assimilate accident detail and to sit on one's hands with care and respect for all those impacted by the tragedy pending some relevant detail etc. NB - Not the guy who sent me the detail in the previous post.

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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#83 Post by Boac » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:35 am

Well, TGG, I hope that tosser is not a friend of yours! What is it with these YouTubers that they just have to get their faces on the screen? He wittered on for 9:30, saying what could have been done in 90 seconds - "wait for the report and do not pre-judge" - "oh, by the way it was probably a pilot mistake involving crappy weather".

I hear he has made around 200 other YouTube videos! It is called YouTube mania, gathering 'hits' and 'likes'.

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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#84 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:40 am

Boac wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:35 am
Well, TGG, I hope that tosser is not a friend of yours! What is it with these YouTubers that they just have to get their faces on the screen? He wittered on for 9:30, saying what could have been done in 90 seconds - "wait for the report and do not pre-judge" - "oh, by the way it was probably a pilot mistake involving crappy weather".

I hear he has made around 200 other YouTube videos! It is called YouTube mania, gathering 'hits' and 'likes'.
Not a personal friend at all and yes he did go on in this case. He is a well know helicopter pilot, commercial helicopter instructor, ex-police officer, author of a number of good instruction manuals and does make a lot of sometimes good videos associated with his flight school.

"oh, by the way it was probably a pilot mistake involving crappy weather".

I don't think he was saying that, he simply pointed out that many people are asking why the police weren't flying on the morning of the Bryant accident when some other outfits chose to fly. I don't think he was trying to attribute blame, simply saying different SOPS pertain to different organisations. Look at the previous post ref. FAR's for some "real insight" here.
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#85 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:15 pm

These simulations are so well done and researched that I have no embarrassment in posting this here...



On the FAR's go back to an earlier post here. The guy who gave me that gen. knew and knows of what he spake...
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#86 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:45 am

I watched this again and it so damned sad, not least because the pilot is clearly a good one, anyone of us could have gone down this like this. fixed wing or not.

Heart breaking really.
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#87 Post by CharlieOneSix » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:40 pm

NTSB Preliminary report issued...
DCA20MA059-Investigative-Update.pdf
(729.96 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
The helicopter pilots' mantra: If it hasn't gone wrong then it's just about to...
https://www.glenbervie-weather.org

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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#88 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:34 am

As the NTSB interim report posted above notes, engine failure does not appear to have been the cause of this accident.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... estigation
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#89 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:33 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:48 am
I have followed up on the question's relating to FAR's etc. and a US based commercial helicopter pilot explained the generic setup to me in this way...
In FAA land you have various rules broken into parts that apply to you as a company depending upon what you are doing.


Part 135--this is mostly small operators taking fare paying passengers from point A to point B, a wealthy business man for example. After meeting some pretty stringent requirements, having training programs etc, the FAA would evaluate and the company would be issued a certificate to operate . The certificate Operational Specifications, (ops specs), are issued in addition to the actual certificate, by the FAA to the company and list out the rules under which they are certified to operate. One of those is VFR or IFR. So, if a company is issued "VFR only ops specs" it means they can only operate flying fare paying passengers in VFR conditions. (Or Special VFR).

How does this all fit in:

etc. etc.
Basketball star Kobe Bryant was killed in the crash of a chartered Sikorsky S-76B helicopter on Jan. 26, 2020. This high-profile crash, which killed his daughter Gianna and seven others, is causing a re-examination of how Part 135 helicopters are operated
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#90 Post by Boac » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:47 am

That was excellent! One of the first bits of common-sense to come out of the crash.

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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#91 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:56 am

Thank you Mr Green Goblin for posting that very informative video clip. :)
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#92 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:32 pm

Boac and Mrs Ex-Ascot

Always a pleasure to add something of interest here... :)
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#93 Post by Boac » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:11 pm

TGG - I have now bookmarked AvWeb. Looks good. I didn't know about them before. Thanks.

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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#94 Post by FD2 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:45 pm

Great clip Goblin - sums the whole business up very well. Pleased I was mainly offshore!
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#95 Post by Seenenough » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:57 pm

It is incorrect I believe to compare helicopter operations with scheduled commercial airliner operation.

The video tells you that numerous helicopter accident took place mainly in the EMS field and to a lesser degree oil platform work.Invariably weather or night time operation were likely factors.

I was directly involved in EMS operations which included 24 hour service.Our SOP's required two pilots aboard for night time VF operation.

It was important that our pilots understood that their job was to fly the aircraft and ensure the safety of all aboard.It was critical, we believed ,that our pilots understood that it was not their job or mission to save the life of the injured or sick patient.

The difference between the two situations should be obvious.

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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#96 Post by G~Man » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:42 am

Seenenough wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:57 pm
The difference between the two situations should be obvious.
Only to those that know.....remove the emotion.....
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#97 Post by Rwy in Sight » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:28 am

G~Man wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:42 am
Seenenough wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:57 pm
The difference between the two situations should be obvious.
Only to those that know.....remove the emotion.....
I am not involved in any capacity - I have just read the EMS accident reports but maybe it should be part of the SOP of just announce the destination and not include any details. I was told about a case last October or November that an aircraft was dispatched to pick up a patient/injured with a note that it was important. I was talking with the FO of the aircraft involved and he made a special point about the note and that they have tanked fuel and made at least three attempts but then they decided to return.

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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#98 Post by Seenenough » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:21 pm

We had several incidents,both day and night, where flights with patients aboard had to be terminated because of deteriorating weather conditions that made further flight unsafe.We also had to ,on rare occasion, abort a flight because of mechanical reasons that required landing ASAP.

When such incidents occurred to only way further was for onward transportation by means of a road ambulance which often created a costly logistical nightmare.

These situations sometimes created some acrimonious debate with our service requestors.There is nothing quite as idiotic and sinister as watching a hospital administrator querying the pilots decision to end such a flight ,when reviewing the case in a scheduled safety meeting, because it caused his financial numbers to go out of line.

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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#99 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:57 am

The hospital flight situation can be just as relevant to fixed wing flight here in the UK.

Single pilot commercial pilot after flying a medivac at night in the Shetlands!

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/bn2a-26 ... 9-may-1996
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Re: Kobe Bryant dead, private Sikorsky S-76 down

#100 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:59 am

Seenenough wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:57 pm
It is incorrect I believe to compare helicopter operations with scheduled commercial airliner operation.

The chap in the video was making that point. His point was simply that the latter operations can be, by their nature, hazardous.
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