King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#41 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:01 pm

The Daily Wail has CCTV footage of the crash in this article...

The helicopter seems to have been well OGE when loss of control occurred.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... crash.html

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#42 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:28 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:46 pm
In my onshore charter days in the 70's we used to provide pilots and engineering services for helicopters owned by companies and rich individuals, ie Rolls Royce and al Fayed to name but a couple. I wonder whether this was the case here or was the pilot directly employed by the helicopter owner.
I'm more than a decade out of date with current CAA interpretations of the rules.

Wouldn't this be Public Transport category? Surely it's not Aerial Work and it sure as hell ain't Private category. So how can there be only one pilot?

Yes, I know that the AW 139 and 169 are cleared for single pilot ops, but I thought the CAA ruled that Public Transport over a quite small MTOW requires a crew of two.

I'm not suggesting that it's in any way relevant to the cause(s) of the crash. I'm just curious.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#43 Post by probes » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:29 pm

uhhh, ... like Slash said - hope they didn't have to face it for long. Rotating like that, that should affect passengers?

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#44 Post by Boac » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:57 pm

That was one hell of a rate of descent.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#45 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:53 pm

Hmm - I think that video may rule out any adverse effect of the tailwind as the helicopter is probably too far into the departure phase. Back to tail rotor or tail rotor drive failure.
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#46 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:00 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Hmm - I think that video may rule out any adverse effect of the tailwind as the helicopter is probably too far into the departure phase. Back to tail rotor or tail rotor drive failure.
I read that some spectators reported hearing a grinding mechanical sound from the aircraft before loss of control began. Once again all anecdotal. I guess we will all have to wait for the AAIB report. A bad day for Leicester, football, Augusta Westland and for all those loved ones of the pilot and passengers. A very sad day for all concerned!

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#47 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:08 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:28 pm
.....Yes, I know that the AW 139 and 169 are cleared for single pilot ops, but I thought the CAA ruled that Public Transport over a quite small MTOW requires a crew of two.....
I’m out of currency on the ANO having been retired for so long but Article 108 of the Air Navigation Order 2016 says:

A flying machine registered in the United Kingdom must carry at least two pilots as members of the flight crew if it—
(a)is flying for the purpose of public transport; and
(b)has a maximum take-off mass of more than 5,700kg.

The AW169 seems to have a MAUW of 4850kgs so single pilot public transport appears to be acceptable.
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#48 Post by OFSO » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:05 am

Three seconds between helicopter appearing at top of CCTV footage and ground impact. As already said, high rate of descent.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#49 Post by Cacophonix » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:25 pm

One piece of scuttlebutt that I missed early on was that there was a theory going around that the AW169 might have hit the police drone used to monitor the crowd at the match. The police have strenuously denied that the drone was in the air at the time of the accident.

0_Police-drone.jpg
0_Police-drone.jpg (32 KiB) Viewed 1171 times

Whatever the cause of this accident I fully expect there to be calls for helicopters to be banned from landing at football stadia.


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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#50 Post by G-CPTN » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:16 pm

Cacophonix wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:25 pm
The police have strenuously denied that the drone was in the air at the time of the accident.
Would they lie? [-X

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#51 Post by CharlieOneSix » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:05 pm

Cacophonix wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:25 pm
.....the AW169 might have hit the police drone used to monitor the crowd at the match. The police have strenuously denied that the drone was in the air at the time of the accident.....
......Whatever the cause of this accident I fully expect there to be calls for helicopters to be banned from landing at football stadia. ....
From what I recall the helicopter did not take off until an hour after the match so the majority of fans would have dispersed and there would be no need for the drone to be airborne at that time.

The accident had nothing to do with the operation from the stadium. It could just as easily happened at Battersea, Ascot, hospital roof pads etc etc. However I do suspect you are right in that from some quarters there will be a call to ban stadia operations - probably from the Daily Wail which has such respected experts available to comment:
Experts suspect the tail rotor failed, sending the £6million AgustaWestland into a 'dead man's curve' that no pilot could handle.
:)) :)) "sending it into a dead man's curve: =)) =)) =)) How pathetic!
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#52 Post by Cacophonix » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:28 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:05 pm
Cacophonix wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:25 pm
.....the AW169 might have hit the police drone used to monitor the crowd at the match. The police have strenuously denied that the drone was in the air at the time of the accident.....
......Whatever the cause of this accident I fully expect there to be calls for helicopters to be banned from landing at football stadia. ....
From what I recall the helicopter did not take off until an hour after the match so the majority of fans would have dispersed and there would be no need for the drone to be airborne at that time.

The accident had nothing to do with the operation from the stadium. It could just as easily happened at Battersea, Ascot, hospital roof pads etc etc. However I do suspect you are right in that from some quarters there will be a call to ban stadia operations - probably from the Daily Wail which has such respected experts available to comment:
Experts suspect the tail rotor failed, sending the £6million AgustaWestland into a 'dead man's curve' that no pilot could handle.
:)) "sending it into a dead man's curve: =)) How pathetic!
=))

Typical of the Wail.

I have been in a "dead man's curve that I couldn't handle" since the day I was born. :))

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#53 Post by CharlieOneSix » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:09 am

A new video has emerged from The Sun which clearly shows that, for whatever reason, the rotation of the fuselage around the mast occurs as he transitions downwind into forward flight following the helipad type rearwards profile take off.

Accident video from The Sun
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#54 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:52 am

C16 - you mention 'downwind' in the transition - is that significant? I see a small right yaw before that which then appears to intensify. Even with a run-away full 'right' tail rotor, however, I cannot see how the huge loss of lift occurred, unless there was a catastrophic failure in the engine drives. Which way is rotor torque on that machine?

I cannot see how the pilot had any control over what happened there other than perhaps a rapid dumping of the collective which could explain the huge rate of descent, but the yaw rate built up so quickly. I fear that despite the media comments, any 'deliberate' choice of crash site was a dream.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#55 Post by Cacophonix » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:27 am

The downwind transition would be sub-optimal in the event of a tail rotor failure and would have inclined the aircraft to weather cock and exacerbate the right yaw I assume C16? Looking at that descent rate, like Boac, I do wonder if he had lost engine power as well, post the commencement of rotation of the fuselage around the mast and before he lowered the collective and rolled off power.? Some sort of catastrophic gearbox/transmission failure resulting in loss of tail rotor and then reduction main rotor thereafter RPM as well perhaps?


Here is that video pointed out by C16 reprised.




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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#56 Post by CharlieOneSix » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:40 am

The metars all evening at the nearby East Midlands Airport were 340/11. The crash site is on the south east side of the stadium, hence my assumption of a downwind departure once he had reached his decision point. As Plum has said there are electricity pylons to the north west and a less congested departure area to the south. This looks as though it influenced his decision to carry out his rearwards helipad departure profile into wind and when at his decision point he then rotated to depart downwind. I don't think it unreasonable to assume the tailwind at the height of his decision point would not be less than 15-18kts.

The tailwind is significant whether this accident is attributed to LTE - loss of tail rotor effectiveness - or tail rotor or tail rotor drive failure. The main rotor rotates anti-clockwise, Boac - the same as when you flew the Whirlwind in your pre-Harrier days.

If the pilot diagnosed tail rotor failure then his only option was to get rid of the torque reaction by stopcocking both engines to try to get the rotation stopped and carry out an autorotative landing. That would explain the high rate of descent. I doubt whether any pilot could have got away with that scenario at night at that height and with nil airspeed. Even with a 15-18kt headwind the chances would be minimal.

I do certainly agree with you that he had absolutely no choice of crash site.

Edit: Caco - yes, agree with your first sentence.
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#57 Post by FD2 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:53 am

It's just possible that the reported 'grinding noise' from the aircraft, which was reported by onlookers, is relevant in this case - if something started to go wrong just as they started to transition into forward flight. It was certainly followed by a catastrophic failure which resulted in the tail rotor failing, for a reason which will hopefully be discovered by the A.A.I.B. The 'correct' (theoretical) response to a tail rotor failure at altitude is to lower the collective immediately and shut down the engine(s) and use the collective to try and cushion any touchdown because if the engines are still running they will respond to collective input and make the situation worse by producing more torque at the bottom. All these actions could probably not be completed before impact in the time available in this case, but would certainly explain the high rate of descent. The failure occurred at a very bad point as he probably did not have enough time and altitude to do anything more than he appears to have done. It's a very poignant video to watch. Just read your post C16 when I tried to upload mine - concur fully.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#58 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:06 am

Certainly a vital piece of video.

"The main rotor rotates anti-clockwise" - points to LTE then I assume - the yaw is to starboard?? Doesn't look good for AgustaWestland at the moment, I fear. The nose-down pitch at the moment of LOC is puzzling to me. Is it likely this was a desperate attempt to generate IAS or an overdone accel?

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#59 Post by CharlieOneSix » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:02 pm

Yes, the yaw is to starboard and would be both with LTE and tail rotor/tail rotor drive failure. It looks as though he had just put in nose down pitch to transition away when the onset of the emergency occurred and the subsequent nose down pitch must as you say be an attempt to gain airspeed to get some flow down the fuselage sides to stabilise the heading.

Having just replayed Caco's video there is what appears to be a burbling wind noise on the camera microphone long after the take off which would seem to indicate that there was possibly reasonable wind even in the bowl of the stadium.
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#60 Post by Cacophonix » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:25 pm

Question for the pro's here. What is the descent rate in a normal autorotation for a helicopter similar to the AW169 likely to be?

In the R44 it is < 1500 feet per minute at about 60 - 70 knots which is a fair descent rate and would ruin your day if you didn't flare properly in the landing. Just asking because the video implies a very rapid descent for the AW169 and I was wondering if pilot had actually achieved some semblance of autorotation as the aircraft seemed to be descending at very high rate indeed and looked to be totally out of control when it impacted.

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