King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

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Undried Plum
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#21 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:03 am

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:21 pm
He was the only pilot on board.
Single pilot, IFR, night, with bright lights closely adjacent.

I fought a war against that in the North Sea context in the mid-1970s when I had a bit of clout on the matter. I lost, angrily.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#22 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:39 am

Yes, a very similar scenario to taking off from a brightly lit offshore platform straight into an inky black IFR situation immediately after rotation. I had to do a very short stint on the S76 single pilot night offshore in the early 80’s before we went to two pilots.
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#23 Post by ian16th » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:03 am

It now seems that the 'pilots girlfriend' is also his FO.
Cynicism improves with age

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#24 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:17 am

Cacophonix wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:20 am
The Leicester City owner, his daughter, the two pilots and one other person (possibly the co-pilot's girlfriend) were killed in the accident it has been officially confirmed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/artic ... adium.html

Caco
Ah so the co-pilot was his girlfriend. That part of my message had been mangled earlier in the day. I had seen some video footage of the two of them at the game and assumed the pilot was the co-pilot.

One wonders at the operational sense of rostering a couple to fly together but then again this may have have been a two pilot commercial operation and thus just the way they worked. I don't see anything in the news to date that indicates that the pilot(s) was/were not faced by what a appears to be a serious mechanical issue just out of ground effect just after take off.

Terribly sad.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#25 Post by Ibbie » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:06 am

There were two pilots onboard, C16.

Izabela Roza Lechowicz, named as friend of the pilot/other passenger, was the other pilot on board and Swaffer's partner.

Seems it was a normal operational pairing in the cockpit.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#26 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:53 am

Ibbie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:06 am
There were two pilots onboard, C16.

Izabela Roza Lechowicz, named as friend of the pilot/other passenger, was the other pilot on board and Swaffer's partner.

Seems it was a normal operational pairing in the cockpit.
Yes, there were two professional pilots on board but were they both helicopter pilots? She may well have been a helicopter pilot but I haven't seen any confirmation of that. My post late last night reflected the Police statement at that time.
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#27 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:06 am

The length of time it took the police and authorities to make some sort of meaningful statement didn't help the clarification of the situation, I agree C16. I can only assume that the delay was due to difficulties in identifying the unfortunate victims of this crash.

A number of statements released by the press yesterday preceded the official Leicester club and then police statements and muddied the waters even further.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#28 Post by probes » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:22 am

'Dead man's curve' has been suggested.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#29 Post by Ibbie » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:36 am

This is on ITV site. Mentioned in other places that she was the second pilot.


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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#30 Post by FD2 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:40 am

I see it has been suggested that 'the engine' stopped and the pilot was a 'hero' for steering the aircraft away from the crowds to a clear area. I'm sure he was an extremely capable and brave man but this nonsense always comes up doesn't it? If he had any control over the aircraft he would try and get it down in a clear area wouldn't he? I know I would. Same with fixed wing - 'he steered the stricken aircraft away from the school to the nearby playing fields'...

Probes: The take off profile is meant to avoid that problem - if an engine fails before the take off decision point he could land back on the helipad with sufficient power from the other engine to cushion the landing, but would have sufficient height to fly away on one engine if the failure occurred after TDP.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#31 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:51 am

A bit of a press profile on the pilot and the co-pilot here...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/l ... spartanntp


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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#32 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:54 am

probes wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:22 am
'Dead man's curve' has been suggested.
Yes, he was in the single engine Dead Man's Curve but not relevant in this case unless both engines failed. Dead Man's Curve relates to the ability to establish autorotation following total power loss and varies according to helicopter type. I would have thought that it made sense at this site to have single engine Out of Ground Effect (OGE) hover ability so that in the event of a single engine failure the AW169 could still fly away - that scenario would be made more difficult with a downwind transition such as the pilot made. With only five on board that should be no problem in a very modern helicopter such as this type. I should add that I have no knowledge of the performance capabilities of the AW169.

Here's the Height/Velocity Diagram (Dead Man's Curve) for my last type, the Bell 214ST when on a single engine. We also had a 2000ft/min rate of climb restriction on that type at any altitude as with the bit fat blades (29" chord) it would be difficult to establish autorotation from that situation.
.
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#33 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:05 am

Caco - note that the photo of the two pilots in that MSN report is taken in a fixed-wing aircraft, not a helicopter. I still haven't see confirmation that she was part of the AW169's operating crew. The AW169 is certified for single pilot operation.
Mr Swaffer has been hailed a hero for steering the doomed helicopter away from the still busy football stadium.

One witness said: “The pilot saved hundreds of lives.”
But eyewitnesses said the tragedy could have been much worse had it not been for the heroic actions of the pilot in guiding the stricken aircraft away from the 32,000-seater ground.
The chopper appeared to develop engine trouble shortly after taking off from the pitch at about 8.30pm
“The pilot probably saved hundreds of lives. It’s still a tragedy, but it could have been much, much worse.”
It suggests Mr Swaffer may have purposely targeted the area to avoid or minimise the number of casualities.
I do hate the rubbish media on these occasions.
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#34 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:27 am

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:05 am
Caco - note that the photo of the two pilots in that MSN report is taken in a fixed-wing aircraft, not a helicopter. I still haven't see confirmation that she was part of the AW169's operating crew. The AW169 is certified for single pilot operation.
Mr Swaffer has been hailed a hero for steering the doomed helicopter away from the still busy football stadium.

One witness said: “The pilot saved hundreds of lives.”
But eyewitnesses said the tragedy could have been much worse had it not been for the heroic actions of the pilot in guiding the stricken aircraft away from the 32,000-seater ground.
The chopper appeared to develop engine trouble shortly after taking off from the pitch at about 8.30pm
“The pilot probably saved hundreds of lives. It’s still a tragedy, but it could have been much, much worse.”
It suggests Mr Swaffer may have purposely targeted the area to avoid or minimise the number of casualities.
I do hate the rubbish media on these occasions.

Yes, you are right. The media make a mess of any detail here. The Daily Wail, for its part, continues to blather on about "Dead Man's Curves" clearly without the foggiest of what those are (sounds dramatic and thus it is good enough).

In the interim I have been trying to find a Height-Velocity diagram for the AW169 but without much luck!

As FD2 said, on the basis of the media logic pertaining to "hero", what any pilot does to avoid areas that will be most likely to kill him in a forced landing, i.e. populated areas with obstructions, will also be, by "media definition", heroic.

Balderdash!

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#35 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:04 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:21 pm
I don’t understand that choice of departure track unless he was operationally restricted from departing to the north by either the CAA or his Ops Manual. To the northwest of the football ground is the River Soar which I would have thought would have allowed a safe departure route in that direction - safe barring any mechanical malfunction.
Looking at Google Earth, I see tall pylons immediately to the Nor'ard of the stadium. This is what StreetView shows just across the road that runs past the stadium.

Image

I think that explains his pedal turn and chosen departure route.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#36 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:57 pm

I cannot substantiate the report but elsewhere it is said that Izabela Lechowicz was a fixed-wing pilot on the Gulfstream. If she was not a helicopter pilot this is probably why the Police listed her as a passenger.

I'm wondering whether tail rotor authority might have been an issue here. A take off from an enclosed stadium where the w/v would have been minimal, a high power transition into what is normally the prevailing southwesterly wind direction and then the northwesterly tailwind is encountered suddenly as they go above the height of the stadium and before any translational lift is achieved. The tail rotor runs out of authority and the tail starts wagging the dog resulting in the rotation that onlookers saw. No height available to reduce collective and get back the tail rotor authority, simultaneously stuffing the nose down and flying away. Just a theory, nothing more.

From what I read the AW169 has a FDR/CVR.
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#37 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:21 pm

AAIB statement:

AAIB Statement - G-VSKP
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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#38 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:33 pm

CharlieOneSix wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:57 pm
I cannot substantiate the report but elsewhere it is said that Izabela Lechowicz was a fixed-wing pilot on the Gulfstream. If she was not a helicopter pilot this is probably why the Police listed her as a passenger.

I'm wondering whether tail rotor authority might have been an issue here. A take off from an enclosed stadium where the w/v would have been minimal, a high power transition into what is normally the prevailing southwesterly wind direction and then the northwesterly tailwind is encountered suddenly as they go above the height of the stadium and before any translational lift is achieved. The tail rotor runs out of authority and the tail starts wagging the dog resulting in the rotation that onlookers saw. No height available to reduce collective and get back the tail rotor authority, simultaneously stuffing the nose down and flying away. Just a theory, nothing more.

From what I read the AW169 has a FDR/CVR.
Good news about the FDR/CVR and as per the AAIB report both recovered intact.

C16, so I guess you are positing the possibility that this might have been a Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness, as opposed to some sort of mechanical failure, within a flight profile that fell within the coloured part of the danger area of the Height/Velocity Diagram (Dead Man's Curve) graph?

LTE! Grabs his flight manual and begins studying again.

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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#39 Post by Cacophonix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:49 pm

Ms Lechowicz is an alumnus of the commercial pilot training school at Stapleford just down the road from chez Caco. This detail was pointed out to me by a friend who is an instructor at Stapleford. I have flown from Stapleford on and off since the year 2000 but didn't know her personally.

This is a page from the Polish Embassy citing her for an embassy award earlier this year. She does not mention a heli rating of any sort and I suspect that C16 is correct in assuming that the fateful flight was a one pilot operation and the lady was certified to fly fixed wing aircraft and not helicopters. There is no helicopter flying school at Stapleford and can't think of one operating there in the period since I have flown there from 2000, although there have been such schools operational there in the past.
I first came to the United Kingdom in 1997, just after finishing a degree programme in Food Technology in Wrocław, for a language course. I liked it and decided to start working here.

Shortly after I also met my partner, who back then worked as an airline and helicopter pilot. He took me out for a few flights, and that is how it all started. I knew this is something I want to do from the moment I touched the controls for the first time.

Growing up in Poland I never had anything to do with aviation at all. I always somehow linked it with military service, and that was never part of my aspirations. Perhaps this is why I was at first slightly anxious about signing up for proper pilot training, but I often take on a challenge before thinking how to go about it. It has worked well for me so far.

In 2003 I finally got my act together, borrowed some money, and started training in a flight centre in Stapleford. Provided there is favourable weather, this first step takes about half-a-year, after which you get a private pilot’s licence. That is just the start. After this you obviously need to fly hours and face even more exams. The real fun begins when you get the qualification to be a commercial pilot.

Although in those days it was complicated to get a job with an airline, private jets were just becoming more and more popular. I started with smaller, six-to-eight seaters and then moved on to bigger jet aircraft, like the Gulfstream.

One of the things I enjoy the most is the absolute unpredictability of piloting charter flights. I have no idea what I will be doing tomorrow because the telephone might ring at any minute and I will be flying to Switzerland, Russia, the Middle East or Seychelles. For this reason, I rarely make any plans for the weekend because everything might change at the very last minute.

Of course, I could work for an airline and have a so-called roster which specifies the dates and times when you fly, but frankly, I guess that would be way more boring.

Through my work, I got to see a lot places around the world. One of my favourite jobs involved me flying from Hong Kong through New Zealand, Tahiti, Bora Bora to Australia. Not everyone is that lucky to be doing this during working hours, right?

Now and then I meet some other female pilots at airports all around the world, but it is still a rare sight. According to studies, only three to seven percent of pilots on the market are women. For the past few years, I have worked as an instructor and examined many pilots in flight simulators. No one ever expressed it openly, but sometimes I noticed a surprise when they first saw a woman in the examiner’s seat.

In Europe or the United States, a pilot's gender is of little or no importance, and the majority of passengers react positively when they see me. I do not recall any significant problems in the Middle East either.

But it happens from time to time, for example in Russia, that when I try to give refuelling instructions, the agent who takes care of us at the airport ignores me and goes away in search of a male pilot. Similarly, our drivers easily mistake me for another stewardess, despite the uniform and a clear indication of my rank, and ask me where the pilot is.

Once I worked for a client who had a somewhat unusual sense of humour and when I introduced myself, said I would be the pilot during our flight and that I was from Poland, he joked: “Oh, that’s a nice change after all the Polish plumbers.” I only smiled at him wryly.

I think people rarely remember the role that the Polish Armed Forces played in this country, especially during the Battle of Britain. Fortunately, there are exceptions. Lately, I met one of the older instructors who greeted me with “dzień dobry” as soon as he heard I was from Poland and told me - with true admiration - about his teacher, a Polish pilot who decided to stay in Britain after the war.

Sometimes I remind people about the 303 Squadron and how Poles defended the sky over Britain. This is something we all should remember about.
https://london.mfa.gov.pl/en/news/polka ... lechowicz/


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Re: King Power Stadium Helicopter Crash

#40 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:46 pm

In my onshore charter days in the 70's we used to provide pilots and engineering services for helicopters owned by companies and rich individuals, ie Rolls Royce and al Fayed to name but a couple. I wonder whether this was the case here or was the pilot directly employed by the helicopter owner.
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