Standard passenger weights - offshore helicopter support flights.

[CharlieOneSix]

Looking at the TUI miscalculated loads thread got me thinking about how things have changed over the years with regard to standard passenger weights for offshore support helicopter flights with fewer than 20 seats in the UK sector. Memory is a fickle thing when looking back nearly 50 years but there is no doubt that in those early days the majority of helicopter passengers were young, fit men and I seem to remember the standard weight was 175 lbs plus baggage was weighed. Forgive me for using lbs throughout instead of kgs, I'm old school.

As the years passed the passengers got older and heavier, the latter no doubt in part due to the - in early years - superb and plentiful food on offshore installations. I can remember on more than one occasion after a butt clenching take off on a rare zero wind day from a rig or platform I radioed ahead and asked for the passengers to be weighed on arrival at Aberdeen. The amount we were over the load sheet weight was worrying and I remember filing MORs and CHIRP reports.

Over the years the standard passenger weight was increased as immersion suits became standard and I think by the time I left North Sea ops in 1999 the standard weight was 190 lbs - can anyone correct me?

I have just been reading CAP 1386 "Safety review of offshore public transport helicopter operations in support of the exploitation of oil and gas. Progress report–2016". After five significant accidents between 2009 and 2013, two of which resulted in fatalities things have changed. There is now a standardised clothing policy for that worn under immersion suits plus passengers now carry Emergency Breathing Systems. To account for the weight of the immersion suit the standard offshore helicopter passenger weight is now 6.6 lbs above that for an aircraft of 10-19 passengers and is 209 lbs for male and 169 lbs for female passengers.

Apart from the fact that flights are now prohibited over sea conditions exceeding 6 metres significant wave height, there is now recognition of the relationship between passenger size and emergency window size. Passengers are now measured for their shoulder width. If that exceeds the minimum emergency push-out window diagonal then those passengers have to sit next to the larger exits that are suitable for all passengers. These Extra Broad (XBR) passengers now have to wear a chequered armband on their immersion suit and have to sit in seats which have a matching head rest cover.

No doubt all these regulations are sensible but I'm glad I'm retired! All a far cry from when British European Airways Helicopters pilots used to fly in winter on North Sea ops in shirt sleeve order and passengers travelled in normal clothes! This was the case when S61 G-ASNM ditched just after midnight on a winter's night in 1970 - fortunately there were only three on board and they all survived.

[PHXPhlyer]

I am unsure how POS (Persons OF Size) are accounted for on W/B of large AC. x2 average weight?
There was quite an uproar when POS's were required to purchase an additional seat to accommodate their size.
I know if a seatmate complained about a large passenger encroaching on their seat space, they were the one removed and re-accommodated rather than the over large pax.

PP

[Pontius Navigator]

I remember two rig flights, one was with Bristows in late 70s, cant remember too many details but I do recall the drivers were in white shirts and jackets. We were also impressed with their total reliance on the security of a VOR and that it was not necessary to look out. In those days BA and BH used different separation criteria. I think one separated in bound and out bound radials by 3 degrees and the other used a different one.

The second was courtesy of the RNoAF. It was supposed to be one way and civi back but in the end it was just a touch and go. A wholly different experience and we were much impressed with the in flight catering

[CharlieOneSix]

Even in the late 70s the standard Aberdeen routing - as now - was based on the ABZ VOR. Outside VOR range, maintenance of radial navigation at that time was by Mk8 Decca, later Danac, then VLF (Ontrac) for some, TANS for others, and finally GPS. As you say, routings were separated by three degrees - still are - and outbound flights were at a standard 3000ft and inbound at 2000 or 2500ft.

Having flown on oil support flights out of Aberdeen since the mid 70s I have to disagree with your statement that operators had different separation criteria. There was good communication between operators and Aberdeen ATC and of course everything was laid out in the UK AIP. After take off helicopters routed out to 40 DME with Aberdeen Offshore Radar then changed to Highland Radar to 80 miles DME. After that you were out of radar contact and a flight watch was undertaken with your destination. If it wasn’t VFR then terminating in a NDB or on board radar approach. That is a simplistic explanation as things varied depending on your radial and the distance of your destination. Our furthest contract was to the Magnus platform north east of Shetland, up to a 6 hour return flight.

As for your crew not looking out I can’t comment. I remember on a British Eagle trooping flight to Singapore being amazed on a cockpit visit that the Britannia’s windscreen was totally covered in newspapers to keep the sun out!

[ian16th]

As for your crew not looking out I can’t comment. I remember on a British Eagle trooping flight to Singapore being amazed on a cockpit visit that the Britannia’s windscreen was totally covered in newspapers to keep the sun out!

Wouldn't have made any difference on our trips to Cyprus & back, they were both overnight!

Our outward leg was the new Mrs Ian's 1st flight!

The glamour of flying disappeared very rapidly

[Rwy in Sight]

The glamour of flying disappeared very rapidly

It never does for me!

[Pontius Navigator]

RiS, it depends where you are sitting. Five hour flights were also about right.

[FD2]

Ah the nostalgia of the Magnus trips! Even better was the driller (Sedco 711?) another 30 miles north which took the distance up to about 300 miles north of Aberdeen. Then the usual prevailing wind from the south west slowing the return to Aberdeen by 10 - 20 knots and sometimes much more, making a refuel and pee stop at Sumburgh necessary. Even more exciting in the dark in winter!

After I joined British Airways Helicopters in 1977 I was P2 to a certain pilot, call him SS, and we had one of those extremely awkward staggering take offs in low wind and a full load of 19 from the Piper. SS had been studying the passengers as they walked out and thought them a little bulkier than the standard weight we used at the time for male passengers - he wasn't exactly a lightweight himself - so he got them all to stand one by one on the freight scales after we got back and found we were considerably overweight. He filed a report and though he got bollocked for it, it was eventually (several years later) agreed to raise the male weight to, I think, 196 lbs. That supposedly took account of their goonsuits. The present scheme C16 mentioned sounds like a bit of a nightmare.

I think it's a good idea to put the big boys away from the emergency exits - we carried an extremely fat man out from Norwich one day in the S76 - apparently a great expert in automation of the NUIs - and he wanted to sit by the emergency window. I stuck him in the rear row, to his annoyance, with his extended seat belt. Luckily he only worked occasionally for Shell so we didn't see him often. The thought of him trying to squeeze through a jettisoned window amused me for weeks, though it wouldn't have been funny for anyone behind him.

It was odd flying around the North Sea in all weathers in uniforms and a headset, after goonsuits and helmets in the Navy, but it took several years and, amazingly, a hard push by the oil companies, to finally get us into goonsuits. It was one of the occasions when the oil companies actually did more than make silly gestures towards 'safety' offshore. A frequent problem with pullovers and uniform happened when the Janitrol heater failed, with a few hundred miles to go to Aberdeen in mid-winter!

A Bristow S61 ditched inbound from the Forties about 1978, luckily with only one passenger. The co-pilot and passenger managed to struggle into the liferaft but the captain (LS) was swimming with the aid of his MAe West then clinging to the upturned hull, until winched up by one of our aircraft about 30 or 40 minutes later. His body temperature was in the 80s and he was near death. The other two were ok. The more thoughtful tended to wear their UVic Thermofloat jackets (company supplied!) more sensibly then.

[Pontius Navigator]

FD2, it was also odd that the RAF had a 10 degree rule against dark blue 15. We used to watch the sea temp isotherms and discard goon suits as soon as it hit 11.
In retrospect it would have been more sensible to factor in time to rescue. Getting a 10 man crew into a liferaft with sea temp over 10 and no suits might have been OK but you would be more comfortable in a goon suit.

My worst time was a sea temp of 4 and we were in the multiseat for 2.5 hours. The worst bit was the winching.

I read in an obituary I think, that the winching could indeed lower body temperatures very quickly. It might have been Lt Cdr Sproule's obit.

[FD2]

I became a fan of 15 when some kind safety equipment chap made us do dinghy drill in the pool when it was 15 c and it was ‘king cold. We used to shed the goon suits at 15 till then. I think it becomes a contest between sea temp and safety as it gets very hot and sweaty in a goon bag when the sun heats the cockpit to the detriment of concentration

[Pontius Navigator]

FD2, ah, the joys of an air ventilated suit.

[Boac]

After 24hour's QRA in a goonsuit the dog would not even come near...

[Pontius Navigator]

BOAC, Mrs PN made me disrobe outside. That was the bunny suit as the goon suit remained in flying clothing.
Do you remember venting your goon suit before taking it off?

[Boac]

Mrs PN made me disrobe outside

Had the neighbours on tenterhooks, no doubt?

Do you remember venting your goon suit before taking it off?

I'd rather not go into detail since some may be offended.

[FD2]

Stale farts that have been decaying for hours...forgot they were there didn't we, until taking the suit off... Air ventilated suit might have helped with that!

PN - that must have been for real at 4 degrees?

[Pontius Navigator]

FD2, nope, training. The extended time was due to Purple airspace for Prince Charles. No long after an ATC Warrant Officer had a heart attack and they changed the rules. On my third set it was 'summer ' and as we were not scaled we had to accept that the temperature was above 10 degrees (liars).
Our co pilot was volunteered to rescue the casualty. When we got him back in the dinghy his hands were rigid. I was lucky as if had my immersion gloves from a previous tour.

[CharlieOneSix]

FD2 - the 1970 BEAH S61 ditching I mentioned resulted in the Captain swallowing a lot of oily sea water when he was in the sea before boarding the liferaft. The Captain was David Creamer who I flew with on the Wessex 3 IFTU. His co-pilot was Keith Gregson. In those days the AAIB reports named the crew! SS that you mention was my opposite number in BAH/BIH in the mid 80s, never flew with him but we were both on some committee of ABZ operators, CAA and ATC, I forget what it was called. He used to post on TOP using his real name.

RGIT in town had a small environmental pool, not much bigger than a bath, for investigations of low body temperatures after a ditching. I think it was kept at 5C. I stupidly volunteered to sit in it whilst we were there for WDD and dunker in the main pool. No goon suit and I think I got out after a couple of minutes!

Yes, it was a daft situation in the 70s with passengers at one time decked out in goon suits but the crew flying in a wooly pully. I remember the first goon suit I was issued with - a Musk Ox one. Being very thick it wasn't designed for North Sea helicopter ops and at that time was totally useless with no neck seal!

I think my worst WDD was in winter in Falmouth Bay. Having been kicked off the back of a boat wearing a goon suit and lifejacket, but no dinghy, we swam around waiting for the SAR Wessex. Half way through picking us all up the winch failed and he went back to Culdrose. The sods on the boat wouldn't let us back on board and we had to wait for another Wessex to come out. I see that SAR cabs nowadays have two winches. Best WDD was in early BCAL Helicopters days at LGW when we did it with a bunch of trainee BCAL hosties! Great fun.

[Pontius Navigator]

Our training at Nav School was in the baths in Bath, 28 degrees and fog.

Later, at Lossiemouth we used a pool in Elgin to practise escape from under a parachute. We wore goggles to impair vision and improve realism. The pool was about 3 feet deep and 24 degrees. G** it were hell.

[FD2]

C16 - Lee Smith was the captain of the Bristow S61 that ditched and got rather cold. I have a photo somewhere of him being stretchered out of our S61 looking very ill. HL or HN, I think I also have a photo of it being craned off a supply boat at Peterhead prior to being rebuilt.

The best WDD drill I did was at Norwich where there was a good facility and the two instructors were female. After the escapes one of them had the job of showing how a very close motionless clinging huddle while floating in our overalls in the warm pool should be used to conserve body heat and it was just she and me... a very sensuous experience... for me maybe...wake up FD2! Not as much fun as a bunch of hosties though C16! I have a dim memory of doing one somewhere else in a large very freezing pool which wasn't so much fun - maybe Robert Gordon's.

The more realistic it is then it should be more helpful I know but...