Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#21 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:51 pm

English subtitles might, I haven't tried UPs post though. UP probably speaks with the clear diction of a low land Scot.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#22 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:30 pm

I've been persuaded to waste time by watching that much derided Vigil tripe.

Harrumpph!

The position listed for the boat plots on GE as being 16.7nm from the nearest coast of Barra. That's outside UK territorial waters, so **** is a civvie rozzer doing on the case? It's a job for the RN Provost people, not the civvies or even the MoD Police.

What the hell was a bomber, on continuous deterrence at sea patrol, doing so close to the Scottish coastline? Their task is to spend ten weeks far out at sea where they can't be found by either friend or foe. Pissing about in 80 metres within a mile of a bottom trawler is not what they do.

Did anyone else notice that the fishermen are handling mackerel (pelagic catch) on a benthic trawler? Nice cgi graphics of the dramatic sinking, though. Similarly, nice cgi of the sub on the surface beneath the apparently genuine RAF Sea King.

When doing the hi-line insertion of the replacement crewman and the cop, why didn't they lift the dead sailor, in a litter, from the casing to the helo? For a non-natural death the imperative would have been to get the body to a pathology facility asap.

Surely once they surfaced their position was comprehensively compromised. The Russkies have pretty good ocean surveillance satellites and would have fixed her position within a matter of minutes.

Further, they don't have to go to periscope depth to transmit a signal. They have a catamaran raft thingy, painted battleship grey, which they winch up to the surface to listen to non-VLF radio and other comms and can detect aircraft and other vessels and from which they can transmit signals. They can float that thing from a very considerable depth.

What a load of bollocks! At the end of Episode 1 the reactor is shut down. The boat had been perfectly trimmed until then, but suddenly she's grossly out of trim in two axes. It's a bit like that thing of a multi-engined aircraft suddenly screaming like a Stuka at Vne if an engine fails. Utter shite!

And --- isn't it a bit far fetched for a V-boat crewman to be having an affair with a closely adjacent peace camp bint? Are we expected to believe that nobody would have noticed that? Also, how did the peacenik know that her beau had died?

The uniforms seem to be deliberately different to those of the RN. Perhaps that's some kind of legal nicety as the RN certainly hasn't approved the script and clearly gave no technical co-operation even at the simplest level. Else they'd not have put the sonar room inside the Control Room!

I'm not sure my blood pressure can handle watching Episode 2.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#23 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:07 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:09 pm
C16, have you been in a bomber? Saw an interesting review by Lt Cdr Lovell on Metro. He mentioned the open torpedo door; I cringed when I saw that too. The submarine was spacious though I thought the missile compartment was cramped. Fascinating touch in the set tonight. They were in the wardroom at one point, one deck head was vertical but the other was canted in which was a nice touch.
Circa 1997 I spent a day aboard Vanguard alongside the wall at Faslane as a guest of the one of the senior officers (not the skipper). There were a few compartments which I was not allowed to enter for one reason or another, but I was shown pretty much the entirety of the boat. For radiation health monitoring reasons, I was not allowed to enter the reactor room. For security reasons I was not allowed to peek behind the curtain of the nav room or to look inside the closed door of the radio room.

I was, however, allowed to look into the sonar room from the open doorway on condition that I did not set foot inside that room. I was astonished by how antiquated much of their gear was when compared to the stuff we had at the time in the commercial hydrographic world. They had the old-fashioned Decca Store 7 reel to reel tape recorders that we thought were geriatric in the 1970s. Their waterfall displays were cathode ray tubes ferfuxake! It was explained to me that the MoD Procurement process works at such a glacial pace that all their equipment was always obsolete half a decade before they got it. I was able able to look deep inside the Missile Control Centre, though only from the open door and without setting foot inside it.

I don't remember there being a grating in the deck between the missile launch tubes, nor in the torpedo room. Perhaps its an artifact in my memory after more than two decades, but I don't remember the launch tubes being that red ochre colour. I'd have said that they were white, with a conspicuous access hatch into each one at about thigh level which is not shown in the film set.

Never mind. I'll now start to watch Episode 2, with a glass of Mac30 in hand to anaesthetise my frontal lobes if the prog doesn't get any better.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#24 Post by CharlieOneSix » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:22 pm

UP - it gets better after episode 2. By that I mean the story gets more tense and IMHO enables one to almost forget the inaccuracies. Mrs C16 has banned my frustrated outbursts and my one explosive outburst in episode 4 resulted in me being put on a final warning! :(
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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#25 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:38 pm

C16:
Maybe she should switch to a football referee style...yellow card / red card. :))

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#26 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:32 am

All done and dusted in episode 5. We know who is behind it. We know how it happened. We know who the baddie is. (the Telegraph got it wrong I replayed the denouement last night).

Episode 6 will be an anti climax unless they plan an heroic anti submarine extravaganza.

Apparently they have been advised by a disgruntled retired two and a half with the story line based on a Wiki leak article
The real-life ‘whistle-blowing’ dossier that inspired ‘Vigil’
The BBC One thriller owes much to the case of an able seaman who went AWOL,

To commanders at HMNB Clyde, the Navy base at Faslane, Able Seaman William McNeilly seemed ideal for manning Britain’s ultimate line of defence. After coming top of his training class, the quiet, studious 25-year-old was fast-tracked into a technician’s role on HMS Victorious, one of the four Trident-armed submarines that patrol the oceans continuously.

He alleges that some of his colleagues had ‘alarming personalities’
Then, in 2015, at the end of his first patrol, McNeilly went AWOL, emailing a 19-page “whistle-blowing” dossier to media outlets. Security on HMS Victorious was laxer than at most airports, he claimed. He said it was only “a matter of time before we’re infiltrated by a psychopath or a terrorist”. And even if that didn’t happen, a Russian spy could make use of the top-secret documents that were lying unguarded around the vessel. The Navy said that the dossier constituted the “subjective and unsubstantiated personal views… [of] a very junior sailor”; anonymous naval sources described McNeilly as a “delusional self-publicist”.

Earlier this month, Tom Edge – writer of the BBC murder-mystery drama Vigil, set on board a Trident-armed submarine – told the Radio Times that he had been inspired by reading about McNeilly’s actions. Edge described the ex-seaman as “a whistle-blower” and his document as an “interesting insight”. McNeilly, then, seems to have been a partial inspiration for Petty Officer Craig Burke (Martin Compston), murdered after passing information to a peace activist, while his view that Trident is vulnerable to foreign infiltration was echoed in Sunday’s episode, when...... spoiler deleted.......
Rather than being jailed for breaching the Official Secrets Act, McNeilly was dishonourably discharged. This was less than many – including McNeilly himself – had expected, leading many to believe that his claims contained some truth and the Navy wished to draw a line under the affair. His current whereabouts are unknown; attempts by The Telegraph this week to track him down were unsuccessful. But his dossier remains available to read via WikiLeaks. In it, McNeilly claims that sailors’ bags were not checked when boarding HMS Victorious, enabling him to smuggle in a smartphone and photograph a document codenamed CB8890, which he describes as “the instructions for the safety and security of the Trident II D5 strategic weapon system”. He also alleges that some of his colleagues had “alarming personalities”. One (he says) enjoyed killing small animals and watching extreme pornography; another smoked an e-pipe on board, flouting a ban; a third attacked a colleague and threatened to kill two others.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#27 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:39 am

It was somewhere during Episode 2 or 3 that I realised that I'd been 'reading' the yarn all wrong. It's not a sea story or a naval story at all. Instead, it's an Agatha Christie style whodunnit which is set in a closed community such as a Nile cruiseboat or the Trans Siberian Railway train or a remote country house party in a snowstorm, with a skilled detective in their midst. In this one it's not a Belgian dandy or an auld granny, but a pseudo-lesbian.

It's the same technique of nominating many of the inmates as plausible suspects and then eliminating them one by one. This yarn is rather clever in that it has two parallel but interwoven plotlines, one on each side of the pressure hull.

Once I realised that, I was able to relax, even when they showed absurdities such as the antenna winch being located inside the boat and protected by perspex. Nevertheless, I was irritated by the silly storyline that a single winch-jam would mean that they were unable to communicate with the outside world. For one thing, there is clearly enough line already veered away so that they could simply heave to and hover at neutral buoyancy and zero speed so the the antenna raft would be straight up from the sub and so it would be able to be brought to the surface without the boat herself broaching. For another, they have two such winches and rafts for the obvious reason. When I visited Vanguard they had a replacement raft sitting on the jetty to replace one that they'd lost during their previous patrol. I saw rather more of it than perhaps I should have. It has several antennae and other sensors. Those guys are never totally isolated from comms, even when submerged.

When in a low threat environment they deploy that thing and the radio ops pipe public broadcast channels, such as local pop music stations, through the boat's intercom network so that the lads can have a wee bit of light entertainment and hear such important things as football results. Although the great majority of the crew aren't allowed to know where they are or where they've been, they can usually get a fair idea of roughly which part of the world they're in by the signal strength on MW and whether it's Canadian or Icelandic or Noggie or Russky voices. Nowadays perhaps those voices might be Farsi or Malaysian or Philippino or Japanese or ....

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#28 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:57 am

UP, indeed, there are only so many plot lines, it's the way you spin it.

Later on our heroes are working in a dark space using torches. Really, not even low wattage lighting?

Or walking the length of the boat and sighting not a soul. You will see why this is improbable.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#29 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:56 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:32 am

"He alleges that some of his colleagues had ‘alarming personalities’"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-1 ... S%20Astute.
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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#30 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:53 pm

I cannot imagine that normally sane people would enlist for service in a submarine.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#31 Post by ian16th » Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:47 pm

G-CPTN wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:53 pm
I cannot imagine that normally sane people would enlist for service in a submarine.
+1
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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#32 Post by Rossian » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:07 pm

The Ffrench crew that I sailed with for two weeks in the N Atlantic in February were a very sane bunch. Chatty, interested/ing,all very different. The ex-Polaris captain I sailed with in the Med for a week was probably the most calm,focussed,practical and eminently sane bloke you could imagine. Plus he had the unrivalled ability to say as we took different bits of the watch, shake me if you need me and be asleep in millisecs.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#33 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:37 pm

From the Telegraph letters page
Computers, unlike yesterday’s mechanical counting machines, can be programmed to use any number base. Why insist on tens, when we no longer count with our fingers?
I immediately thought of Norfolk.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#34 Post by ian16th » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:23 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:37 pm
From the Telegraph letters page
Computers, unlike yesterday’s mechanical counting machines, can be programmed to use any number base. Why insist on tens, when we no longer count with our fingers?
I immediately thought of Norfolk.
Dunno why this is in the thread it is. But here goes.

The IBM 1401 had an optional hardware feature, Sterling feature'. Yes this was hardware and didn't need programming.
This feature managed to handle 12d to the shillings and 20 shillings to the pound.
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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#35 Post by CharlieOneSix » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:37 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:39 am
It was somewhere during Episode 2 or 3 that I realised that I'd been 'reading' the yarn all wrong. It's not a sea story or a naval story at all. Instead, it's an Agatha Christie style whodunnit ......
Once I realised that, I was able to relax......
That's exactly what I eventually realised and now I'm enjoying it. Final episode this Sunday.
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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#36 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:38 pm

My father was 'the man from the Prudential' - collecting cash monthly from homes that had insurance and assurance policies.
Had to count the cash and was expert in base 12 counting.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#37 Post by FD2 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:15 pm

All the guys from my entry who went on to command nuclear boats, including 'bombers' were sound as a bell. The 'Perisher' course sorted the men from the boys and though some may have been more outgoing than others they were all self possessed and none had 'alarming' personalities. Their great excitement was when they got to discuss their tales of 'derring do' amongst the Soviet ships in the Barents Sea during reunions.

They even managed to get their own 'badges' (Dolphins) approved, thus increasing the jealousies which had existed from 'fisheads' since Dunning's ship landings in 1917 and the wearing of 'wings' by aircrew. Now the fisheads have their own badges - silver ones for command of smallish ships and gold ones awarded for command of big things like carriers. I hope they can forget their old prejudices now...but I doubt it. ;)))

Vigil starts here soon - I'll be watching on best behaviour. :ymdevil:

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#38 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:53 am

I have known two ex-submariners, one of whom, I hired, and worked with. The latter was a dapper, highly intelligent, competent, understated Scot, who had been an XO in the Royal Navy, in the nuclear fleet. The other was an Afrikaans engineer, who had spent some time in Toulon, learning the in's and out's of the Daphne class diesel submarine. He too was intelligent, easy to get along with, and understated. Essentially both men seemed to share the same basic characteristics, even though they came from different cultures, spoke different languages and worked in different navies. Both men were phlegmatic and, to my mind, the epitome of sanity. I would have chosen either of them to be a companion on a long flight in a small aircraft, where, "as any fule kno", having a blithering idiot or pompous toad, sitting next to you can be a highly concentrated form of close quarter torture.

As for Vigil, I restate what I said many posts back...
Errors, gaffes, unrealistic technical and authenticity faux pas aside, it was good television drama
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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#39 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:27 am

The CO of Vigil is of course quite different from those mentioned above.

Mind you, I am amazed at the sheer numbers of good actors in major roles that I have never seen before.

Now a little spoiler, I thought it a classic "ah, another member of the **** up club". Episode 5 and beautifully deliverd.

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Re: Vigil, Winching and a Sea King.....

#40 Post by Rwy in Sight » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:41 am

ian16th wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:47 pm
G-CPTN wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:53 pm
I cannot imagine that normally sane people would enlist for service in a submarine.
+1
Funnily enough I discussed once with a submariner. His mother vetoed a service in the AF he ended up in the Navy submarine fleet

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