Numbers Broadcast

Message
Author
User avatar
llondel
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5912
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:17 am
Location: San Jose

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#21 Post by llondel » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:37 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:14 am
boing wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:43 am
The neat thing about a numbers broadcast is that 99.9% of its transmissions can be total garbage with the "one in a thousand" being useful. This means that a rival decryption facility has to decode the whole thousand transmissions to find the one that may be interesting and then they must break the second level of code to read the contents. The actual intended receiving party can use a "one time pad" as simple as a yesterday's local newspaper for decoding.

The system is cheap to operate requiring basically one operator and a transmitter and it creates its own obfuscation while an unintended receiving party needs to make a considerable effort to decode the signals.

.
Really good synopsis of the pro's of the system and, as you say, the message can be further encoded using 128 or, better, AES 256 bit encryption (for example) to slow the would be eavesdropper down some more.
The German SS used extra encryption in WW2. They'd supply an encrypted message to the Enigma operator and that would be encoded and sent using the machine. So even if the Bletchley people had the correct settings it still wouldn't look like a message. What tipped them off was, as is often the case, a mistake on the German side. A supplied message had a digit '1' in it, and an Enigma machine is letters only. The operator, instead of flagging the issue, used his initiative and typed "eins", which was spotted by someone in the UK who guessed what had happened and took the text for further decryption and cracked it.

User avatar
G~Man
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: California on a fire or a sailboat somewhere.
Gender:
Age: 60

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#22 Post by G~Man » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:18 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:01 am
:-bd
You are a pukka ELINT operator! ;)))
From many years ago on Nimrods........ ;))) ;)))
B-) Life may not be the party you hoped for, but while you're here, you may as well dance. B-)

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#23 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:22 am

G~Man wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:18 pm
TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:01 am
:-bd
You are a pukka ELINT operator! ;)))
From many years ago on Nimrods........ ;))) ;)))
I am not surprised. You cannot put a binary code in front of an operator not to have him/her to want to decode it. Sorry it was so obvious and shame on me that I hadn't double encoded it. ;)))
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
ian16th
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10029
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:35 am
Location: KZN South Coast with the bananas
Gender:
Age: 87

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#24 Post by ian16th » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 am

“There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t”.
Cynicism improves with age

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#25 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:26 pm

We understand the Eye in the Sky...

Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#26 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:28 pm

ian16th wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 am
“There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t”.
:-bd
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

ricardian
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5947
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:08 pm
Location: 59°09N 002°38W
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#27 Post by ricardian » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:28 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:14 am
Really good synopsis of the pro's of the system and, as you say, the message can be further encoded using 128 or, better, AES 256 bit encryption (for example) to slow the would be eavesdropper down some more.

AES Encryption Standard - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance ... n_Standard

Use phase shifting, frequency hopping etc. and the would-be decoders task has just got a lot more difficult...

Signals that look like natural static or noise are great places to hide in plain sight... faux entropy being the best disguise....
Better still, use direct sequence spread spectrum and a nice high chip rate to "smear" your signal over a range of frequencies so that it drops down so low in amplitude that you cannot find it unless you know that it's there.
Ricardian, Stronsay, Orkney UK
www.stronsaylimpet.co.uk
visitstronsay.com
https://www.wunderground.com/forecast/EGER

User avatar
ian16th
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10029
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:35 am
Location: KZN South Coast with the bananas
Gender:
Age: 87

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#28 Post by ian16th » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:53 pm

I've been wondering when our resident expert would enter the debate!
Cynicism improves with age

User avatar
llondel
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5912
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:17 am
Location: San Jose

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#29 Post by llondel » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:56 am

Who's to say that the real stuff isn't there, with the numbers meaningless now technology has given better ways?

User avatar
boing
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:32 am
Location: Beautful Oregon USA
Gender:
Age: 77

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#30 Post by boing » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:34 am

I would think that a numbers station operating on simple HF is still a good usable option.

The wide geographic area covered by HF means that the signal cannot be observed as being directed to one location meaning the receiver location is not compromised.
The reception equipment does not need to be complicated, a simple Ham radio purchased through the internet of bought privately on Cra*g's List may be adequate.
A publication close to the receiver such as a local newspaper can be used as a one time pad meaning the receiver does not need to handle compromising documents that need to be re-issued periodically or to possess incriminating equipment.
A given numbers transmission can be used to address multiple receivers simultaneously.
The transmission can be repeated at leisure to assist in error free reception, to allow error correction or to overcome the vagaries of HF propagation.

The problem with numbers broadcasts is verification of reception to the sender making it unreliable for coordinating time-sensitive complex operations. This problem can be solved if days are available but not in a couple of hours without risking compromising receiver location.

"Les Sanglots longs des violons de l'Automne... blessent mon coeur d'une langueur monotone"

.
the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#31 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:16 am

boing wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:34 am
I would think that a numbers station operating on simple HF is still a good usable option.

"Les Sanglots longs des violons de l'Automne... blessent mon coeur d'une langueur monotone"
+1

As for Paul Verlaine's poetry...

Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

User avatar
boing
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:32 am
Location: Beautful Oregon USA
Gender:
Age: 77

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#32 Post by boing » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:50 pm

I suppose "Once more in to the breech dear friends..." would have been a bit to obvious and it would have upset the French. :ymdevil: :ymdevil:

.
the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

User avatar
ian16th
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10029
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:35 am
Location: KZN South Coast with the bananas
Gender:
Age: 87

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#33 Post by ian16th » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:11 pm

Wasn't de Gaulle upset because he wasn't in on the secret?
Cynicism improves with age

User avatar
TheGreenGoblin
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17596
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:02 pm
Location: With the Water People near Trappist-1

Re: Numbers Broadcast

#34 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:58 am

ian16th wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:11 pm
Wasn't de Gaulle upset because he wasn't in on the secret?
I am not sure although I suspect he spent a lot of his here in the UK in an upset state... =))

What De Gaulle Won On D Day...
Though you remain
Convinced
"To be alive
You must have somewhere
To go
Your destination remains
Elusive."

Post Reply