HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#61 Post by Boac » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:20 pm

So, speaking personally, I am puzzled as to what you think actually happened?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#62 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:23 pm

Quantum logging.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#63 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:38 pm

UP, with respect, have you been imbibing BM's medicine?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#64 Post by tango15 » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:06 pm

Slightly off thread, but the basics are somewhat similar. When I was working in ops for one of the handling companies at Luton, I had to go out to meet a Wizz Air flight to collect some paperwork from the captain. We had FR24 on a big screen in the office and I watched the aircraft onto finals. I met the aircraft on the tarmac, but as I watched it taxi in, I noticed that the registration was different from the one shown on the screen. I radioed back into the office and asked what reg. they had on the departure signal. It was the reg that was on the aircraft. I mentioned it to the captain (who happened to be British), but he hadn't a clue, either. A contact of mine, who's into all this stuff gave me an explanation, but frankly I understood very little of it. What I know about computer systems can be written on the back of a postage stamp. I have since heard of a number of similar occasions where, on FR 24 at least, the reg. did not match the aircraft.
Ever since then, I have never totally trusted these AIS-type systems.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#65 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:31 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:20 pm
So, speaking personally, I am puzzled as to what you think actually happened?
Simple. I think it was a pre-planned provocation, in cahoots with the Septics, to prod the Bear in the ribs and try to get them to do summink stoopid.

The long pre-planned presence of the two Integrity Initiative goons aboard the vessel pretty much proves that. It was a propaganda Operation. It even had a name. An Operation, not an Exercise.

The faked AIS data which was fed to the Wail and the BBC et al is quite inconsistent with the actual ground truth of the video footage shot by the defenders which very clearly shows that Defender turned to Starboard when challenged with the warnings shots which were subsequently, rather clumsily, denied by the Main Building propagandist goons.

As for why dey do dat ting of broadcasting bullshit co-ords - I think that they do it because they can and because they know that they can get away with any amount of bullshit. They learned/taught that with the Blair/Bush Iraq WMD dossier bullshit and the PA103 trial bullshit etc.

They do not feel that they have to be truthful because they know they don't have to be truthful. It really is as simple as that.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#66 Post by FD2 » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:29 pm

Is HMS QE (or any of the others in the group) doing the same thing, or just one of her escorts? So if you say they can do this thing deliberately, what business is this of the Russians or Chinese when the ship is probably in the middle of the Indian Ocean?

I ask again, is it likely that the Russians or Chinese will be unable to see the ships from their satellites of have they invented a sort of Klingon cloaking device as well?
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#67 Post by Boac » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:48 am

Sorry, Plum - I do not understand. Ships often change course.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#68 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:10 am

UP has taken a position.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#69 Post by Boac » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:17 am

Yes, but is it a spoofed position? Is he in fact in the Med? We need to know. I've scanned the Wail and listened to the BBC but they have not covered it.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#70 Post by Boac » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:27 pm

He's turned off his AIS........................ =))

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#71 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:37 pm

FD2 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:29 pm
I ask again, is it likely that the Russians or Chinese will be unable to see the ships from their satellites of have they invented a sort of Klingon cloaking device as well?
I say again: The provocative military action of encroaching upon soverign Russian territiory was an in-yer-face overt action. No stealth involved. They telegraphed (in the boxing sense) their intended offensive action well in advance and overtly tooled up with heavy calibre weapons locked and loaded and with men on deck in bright sunshine in broad daylight wearing anti-flash hoods and gauntlets.

There was nothing covert about it. Quite the opposite.

The subterfuge was to disguise the track positions for UKUSA public opinion purposes by transmitting bogus co-ords on the AIS broadcasts, in the knowledge that the Integrity Initiative fed meeja would obediently feed a sketch of that false track to the sheeple of the Atlantic Treaty folks whom they knew would not question what they were told.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#72 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:39 pm

Boac wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:27 pm
He's turned off his AIS........................ =))

Squawking 7000 (and 1200 for those who are short of understanding).

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#73 Post by FD2 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:01 pm

Now here's me thinking we were talking about the Indian Ocean but it seems we 're still in the Black Sea, which I thought we'd put to bed. Now was all this subterfuge going on in the Black Sea or is it since they left the area? Is the AIS working normally in the Indian Ocean? Is HMS QE's working normally?

Back to the Black Sea - were they spoofing their position (or whatever was actually happening) while being closely observed by Putin's goons - if so what would be the point of that?

Any commanding officer who did not have people closed up at action stations or at least defence stations while passing legally off the coast of the area 'legally' occupied by the Leader-for-Life Putin would need his head examining. Having 'Telegraphed' their intentions in advance, were they informed about the Thug's naval exercises - no answers from RT please - Notices to Mariners etc. maybe, or was it a spur of the moment thing to have a large part of the Russian armoury wazzing around the area? ;)))
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#74 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:31 pm

FD2 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:01 pm
were they informed about the Thug's naval exercisesn tions in advance, t a spur of the moment thing to have a large part of the Russian armoury wazzing around the area? ;)))
Yes. That was heavily 'signaled' before the encroachement into Russian territory.

The idea was to poke the Bear in the ribs, overtly. Running away was to be denied. As occurred with the denial of the pesky Russky warning shots.

The whole thing occurred in Russia's back yard, not the Moray Firth ferfuxake! That was the thuggishness in intent and in exhibition.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#75 Post by llondel » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:50 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:37 pm

The subterfuge was to disguise the track positions for UKUSA public opinion purposes by transmitting bogus co-ords on the AIS broadcasts, in the knowledge that the Integrity Initiative fed meeja would obediently feed a sketch of that false track to the sheeple of the Atlantic Treaty folks whom they knew would not question what they were told.
Surely if they were properly spoofing for a PR exercise, the track would be plausible and just outside Russian territory, not clearly fake by being all over the shop. It would have been much more believable had the public data shown them skirting Russian waters but otherwise closely matching where they really were.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#76 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:59 pm

llondel wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:50 pm
Undried Plum wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:37 pm

The subterfuge was to disguise the track positions for UKUSA public opinion purposes by transmitting bogus co-ords on the AIS broadcasts, in the knowledge that the Integrity Initiative fed meeja would obediently feed a sketch of that false track to the sheeple of the Atlantic Treaty folks whom they knew would not question what they were told.
Surely if they were properly spoofing for a PR exercise, the track would be plausible and just outside Russian territory, not clearly fake by being all over the shop. It would have been much more believable had the public data shown them skirting Russian waters but otherwise closely matching where they really were.
Technical plausibility is not a requirement when fooling the BBC/Wail consumers of gobshite with a cartoon. Hence: they don't bother.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#77 Post by FD2 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:03 am

So the thicko Mail readers will be fooled by anything? 8-} :))

Heavily 'signalled' before hand - when and by what means? It would also be interesting to see what areas were declared out of bounds in this Russian maritime territory. I don't think anyone believes it was other than an exercise to promote freedom of passage and it produced a predictable result from the dictator's forces. Also I don't think there's any possibility of dislodging the Russians from their ancient ancestral lands in the Crimea. :^o Did the Tsars allow a few thousand serfs to grub around there? The Russians tried to gain maximum publicity for themselves but I guess most people, apart from the Putin fanbase, know that leopards don't change their spots. [-X

Granted it's not the Moray Firth - I can't imagine the UK would be so belligerent towards a ship on passage through the area legitimately - using it for target practice etc. It seems that even Biden is questioning the predictable results of the second pipeline to Germany which Mrs Merkin is so keen on. Gas supplies to replenish stocks before winter are slow apparently from the existing pipeline, so the eastern European countries will start winter at a disadvantage. What a shame. I would much rather see the UK forces removed from their present tasking in eastern Europe and maybe given some sunshine in say, Gibraltar. The EU obviously doesn't seem to appreciate any assistance from the hated UK. Sorry for the thread drift away from Putin's Black Sea purlieu to Putin's Baltic gas pipe. :D
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#78 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:45 am

The Black Sea is not a Russian Lake though they like to think so. They border but a small part of it and it is more similar politically to the Baltic.

As for exercises, should the Russians chose to navigate the Channel on a Thursday they might see exercises in progress.

On TOP was a link to activities by the Comets of 51 Sqn when the Black Sea was very much a Soviet Lake. Right of free passage in international waters would be boring were there no exercises.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#79 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:13 am

UP - I am struggling with your points. I assume I missed this 'misleading information' that was fed, you say, to the media. Can you explain exactly what you think was being done in terms of actual routing of the convoy, media 'presented' routing of the convoy and what the object was? What exactly are you suggesting the point of 'seeing' a ship in the Persian Gulf or the English Channel was when it was actually in the Black Sea was and who was this 'ruse' designed for?

Is your point simply that it was all done to provoke a response from Russia? No mystery there, is there? That was obvious to all from minute 1 and a necessary move.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#80 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:14 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:45 am
The Black Sea is not a Russian Lake though they like to think so. They border but a small part of it and it is more similar politically to the Baltic.

As for exercises, should the Russians chose to navigate the Channel on a Thursday they might see exercises in progress.

On TOP was a link to activities by the Comets of 51 Sqn when the Black Sea was very much a Soviet Lake. Right of free passage in international waters would be boring were there no exercises.
The Russians should choose to navigate the channel on a Sunday then! If the Royal Navy is as slack as the RAF then they will have a quiet day "yachting" in the Straits of Dover (or attempting to keep the Admiral Kuznetsov from sinking, or simply breaking down again). ;)))
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