HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

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Undried Plum
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#181 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:21 pm

llondel wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:21 pm
Undried Plum wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:15 pm
Nice head fake by Integrity Initiative there!

It wos the Russkys wot fed the fake track data of Operation Ditroite to the tame meeja of the Beeb and the Wail, not Integrity Initiative at all. :)) =))
Yes, I did spot the implication as to who they were claiming was responsible. On the other hand, I'm quite prepared to believe that it's not all one-sided, although not sure about whether it's acceptable to fake tracks belonging to the other side. One could engineer all sorts of "invasions" of territorial waters if you wanted to. Huge potential for abuse by all sorts of parties.

It's not even legal to fake the positions of the ship(s) of your own side.

If the MoD had wanted the true track of Defender to be included in the Integrity Initiative Operation Ditroite they'd have issued it themselves. Not one frame of video or one byte of ASCII emanating from that Op was not vetted by MoD Main Building first before being broadcast by the Daily Wail and the Beeb. That's the nature of "embedded" propaganda ops.

Clearly there was something of a **** in the scripting. That's why there was the conflict between the version which claimed that warning shots and been fired and a line of four bombs had been stitched along the projected course of the intruder warship; and the Main Building subsequent denial that that happened and the denial that Defender was forced to turn to Starboard as a result of those shots. Main Building, and probably the Spetics who were very clearly involved in the semi-failed Op, are trying to re-write History and to deny that the ship was forced into that chicken-like turn to Stbd which was so clearly shown on the Russian video.

The Wail/Beeb track was clearly *****. I said so here on this forum at the time. Now Integrity Initiative is trying to cover its tracks by claiming that its own ***** was all some kind of dastardly Rooskie plot and that Northwood didn't actually know what the true track of Defender actually was.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#182 Post by FD2 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:21 pm

'Chicken-like turn to starboard' - pure RT narrative UP - was it to maybe avoid the possibility of being bombed? If it's not 'legal' to fake the position of one's own ships then who or what is going to do anything about it? If over 100 ships have done it, including your beloved 'Russkie' ones then clearly the rules are being broken, but what 'Law' makes it illegal? That question is 'law' not custom and practice and if there really is one then whose is it?

The narrative of this event is all so (-| i-)

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#183 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:16 pm

FD2 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:21 pm
was it to maybe avoid the possibility of being bombed?
Yup, that that's very exactly what it was. The MoD narrative didn't want it to look like the skipper chickened out, so they denied that he did so and they faked the trackplot to make it look like he didn't.

Now the rewriting of History is laying a false trail to make it look like it was the pesky Rooskies who published the fake trail.

When the BBC goon so confidently said that the warning shots were "out of range", I did wonder how he knew what the distance of the shots was and how he felt so confident that the knew the maximum range of that particular type of gun is. If he did report the dropping of the stick of four bombs, his report didn't make it past the MoD censors as it was clearly not part of the agreed script.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#184 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:07 am

The MOD has complete control of the narrative with everything released from the Mod Box and everything transmitted over MOD circuits. They have only slight coercive control over journalists accredited to the MOD.

If you publish uncleared comment, don't expect to remain on board or get any future bennies.

Some years ago the RAF drew up a short list influencers (before that word was invented) for a flight in a Typhoon. One such was Telegraph defence correspondent, son of a brigadier. He publish an article and was immediately struck off the friends list. He seat went, I think, to Blue Peter.

The point, you cannot count on all embarked reporters to toe the line.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#185 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:34 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:07 am
The MOD has complete control of the narrative with everything released from the Mod Box and everything transmitted over MOD circuits. They have only slight coercive control over journalists accredited to the MOD.

If you publish uncleared comment, don't expect to remain on board or get any future bennies.

Some years ago the RAF drew up a short list influencers (before that word was invented) for a flight in a Typhoon. One such was Telegraph defence correspondent, son of a brigadier. He publish an article and was immediately struck off the friends list. He seat went, I think, to Blue Peter.

The point, you cannot count on all embarked reporters to toe the line.
A reporter who toes the line ceases to be a reporter and becomes a propagandist.
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#186 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:21 am

TGG, true, but believe my, they have a little list.

In the 60s Chapman Pincher was the go to journalist every morning in the Mess. His success owed as much to the then disaffection with the political MOD. The RAF Club bar was one such source of stories however Teddy Donaldson was the Telegraph man at the time and was a sucker for tall tales.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#187 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:32 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:21 am
TGG, true, but believe my, they have a little list.
Very Gilbert and Sullivan of them PN! ;)))
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#188 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:21 pm

TGG, quite an eye opener when I became a PRO. They had a budget, a generous budget, and an annual jamboree, sorry, I meant briefing.

The first, apparently the only place that could accommodate us all was at a 4* hotel near Gatwick for 3 nights, pool and gym included. We had another near Brampton and a third at High Wycombe. Not the HQ but at the aptly named Holiday Inn off the M40. Another was the Hilton of the M5.

They also ran to Gizitz, mouse mats, key rings etc but also to Golfing Umbrellas, small brollies, base ball caps and so on.

Good PR is seems has no budget limit.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#189 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:40 pm

Integrity Initiative has a budget of millions, kindly 'donated' by NATO; DoD; MoD; Chatham House; Atlantic Council et al.

They even set up a Scottish subsidiary, registered as a "charity". The chief personal beneficiary of the feloose had the cheek to register his private castle (which was little better than a barn) as the address of the so-called "charity". The Scottish Charity Commissioners struck 'im off, perhaps without realising just how powerful II's backers are within the Scottie Gumment.

The Scottish bit tried to run itself financially the way the Murrell private business runs the financial affairs of the Snumpty family firm. The rest of Integrity Initiative is much more discreetly run and you won't find the full truth about the main firm anywhere.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#190 Post by ian16th » Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:24 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:21 am
TGG, true, but believe my, they have a little list.

In the 60s Chapman Pincher was the go to journalist every morning in the Mess. His success owed as much to the then disaffection with the political MOD. The RAF Club bar was one such source of stories however Teddy Donaldson was the Telegraph man at the time and was a sucker for tall tales.
Chapman Pincher was given a jolly in an early AAR/IFR flight with 214 c.1959-60.
He refered to the 'hydrolic hiss' of the door closing! Must have been the Crew Chief wheezing!
If my memory is correct, he wrote for The Express.
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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#191 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:50 pm

Ian, correct, the Express. As I say, the Express was the most in demand paper in the Mess. I think its success led to the publication of Pravda, sorry I meant RAF News.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#192 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:50 am

I see that a known smuggler of petroleum products via Iran has been apprehended off Fujairah.

Special forces of at least two interested parties are known to be in the vicinity.

Might get interesting. We shall see.

The most recent official dit I've seen is this rather uninformative one.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#193 Post by FD2 » Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:36 am

UP - Are you saying the owners of the hijacked ship are known smugglers of petroleum products via Iran?

As Iran has denied any knowledge of this armed group, they can be treated as the pirates they appear to be and an assault carried out to re-take the vessel. They definitely need to increase surveillance in the area.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#194 Post by FD2 » Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:51 am

US accuses UK of lax security after secret dossier found dumped at bus stop

Westminster’s response to breach criticised after documents detailing HMS Defender’s passage through Ukrainian waters were mislaid
By Danielle Sheridan, Political and Defence Correspondent and Steven Edginton 3 August 2021 • 9:22pm
Credit: Reuters/Sergey Smolentsev https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... mped-kent/

The Government has been accused of “lax” security after top secret documents were left at a bus stop.

Senior sources within the US Department of Defence told The Telegraph “an FBI investigation would ensue” if a similar situation had played out in the US, in which a senior civil servant lost a 50-page secret dossier after removing it from a secure building.

They said: “At the very least, the person in question would either be asked to resign, forced to take early retirement or be permanently stripped of his security clearance and redeployed to a role where no security clearance was required.”

It is understood that Angus Lapsley, who was director for defence, international security and south-east Europe at the Foreign Office from 2017 until 2019, was the person who lost the documents.

It is understood that while Mr Lapsley, who was set to be made ambassador to Nato, had his security clearance suspended and was removed from the Ministry of Defence after the breach, he remains in post at the Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office.

A government source told The Telegraph that while Mr Lapsley’s security clearance was suspended, “it doesn’t mean it won’t be reinstated at a later date”.

The US official cautioned that the “lack of discipline” displayed towards Mr Lapsley raised “serious questions about UK-US intelligence”.

“The way it has been handled does not instil confidence,” they said. “Why was he even taking such documents out of the building? Obviously, the British are more lax than we are.”

In June, it was revealed that a senior official had left a 50-page secret dossier at a bus stop in Kent.

The documents, some of which were marked “Secret UK Eyes Only”, discussed the likely Russian reaction to HMS Defender’s passage through Ukrainian waters as part of the Carrier Strike Group’s maiden operational voyage.

It is understood that Mr Lapsley, who also held a number of senior positions within the Civil Service, was being considered for an appointment as the UK’s ambassador to Nato at the time of the incident.

In 1986, Lord West left documents detailing large cuts to the Navy on a canal towpath, which resulted in the former First Sea Lord being court martialled. Days of taking papers home ‘are long gone’

Sir Iain Duncan Smith, the former Conservative leader, also questioned why Mr Lapsley had taken such sensitive documents home.

“The message should go out very strongly that the days of taking papers home are long gone,” he said, adding that there was “no excuse” to do so when encrypted communications on secure computers were readily available.

Sir Iain added: “It should be a significant offence to take papers home. It was a terrible security mess and he shouldn’t be carrying stuff like that home when it’s classified. I hope the Government is making a real point that anyone who takes papers home will find themselves being disciplined.”

A Government spokesman said: “The UK Government takes the protection of its information extremely seriously. The investigation has independently confirmed the circumstances of the loss and the manner in which it occurred.

“The investigation has confidence that all secret papers were recovered, there was no evidence of espionage and there has been no compromise of the documents by adversaries.

“The individual concerned has been removed from sensitive work and has already had their security clearance suspended pending a full review.”


I can't understand why Lapsley has not appeared in a magistrates' court yet, en route to the Old Bailey. ~X( What excuse can there be for him still being in his post and to add insult to injury suggest that he may get his security clearance back again at some time in the future? In other words he's one of our favourites boys and we're hoping to kick it into the long grass.

Before it's pointed out - Alan West was also a favourite son (of the Navy) after his Falklands exploits and he was treated favourably. A reprimand is sometimes a route to rapid promotion though he was on his way up long before the towpath incident. He merely accelerated the release of news of the cuts!

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#195 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:04 am

FD2 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:36 am
they can be treated as the pirates they appear to be and an assault carried out to re-take the vessel.
Whew! That's OK then. #-O :YMPRAY:

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#196 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:31 am

FD2, don't forget Paddy Hind 4 years before losing his laptop when he stopped at Car Warehouse or similar. His ADC carried the can and later got promoted.

Then there was Major Martin in 1943 though he was dead at the time.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#197 Post by FD2 » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:35 am

Whew! That's OK then. Yep - OK by me, no matter what their nationality they should be tried at the Hague, but they seem to have scarpered, so that leaves plenty of room for the conspiracy theories to emerge... B-) ;)))

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#198 Post by FD2 » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:36 am

Will look up Paddy Hind, PN.

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#199 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:54 am

Asphalt Princess is now hove to and showing NIC dayshapes.

Is she offloading smuggled products for onward transport to the Mrats? When she was in Iranian waters with her AIS switched off (or jammed) did she load a cargo of products, as the smugglers do?

Qui bono from these shady deals which so severely undermine the Iranian economy?

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Re: HMS Defender, Russia and all that stuff

#200 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:57 pm

FD2 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:36 am
Will look up Paddy Hind, PN.
ACM Sir Paddy, CinC STC during the Falklands. Laptop stolen from his car when it was at the second hand car show room. It was his staff car with driver and his PSO, a wg cdr carried the can. The laptop contained the invasion plans.

I don't know if it was recovered but the wg cdr carried the can and was later promoted to gp capt. My reference to Maj Martin was questioning whether it was a deliberate loss and disinformation.

Lord West similarly might have intended the premature release. Does the Defender leak have a subtle subtext?

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