Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

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CharlieOneSix
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Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#1 Post by CharlieOneSix » Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:28 pm

A friend watched a video of the Buck House flypast on Saturday and has asked me why the airbrakes were extended on the Hawks. As my only fixed wing experience is Tiger Moths and Chipmunks I was at a loss for an explanation. However, thinking about it afterwards, the only reason I can think of is that the Hawk engine would be at a higher rpm as a result and would maybe be more responsive to throttle input at that setting. I'm sure boac or Fox can enlighten me......
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Re: Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#2 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:47 pm

Exactly.
All jet engines have better throttle response the closer one gets to maximum power.
Use of airbrake is very common for carrier approaches.
The Hawks often have to fly slower than usual to fit in with a big flypast.
Some talked about using it when refueling off a slow (e.g. Herc) tanker (Down South), but I did not find it necessary.

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Re: Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#3 Post by llondel » Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:51 pm

My guess would be that with the engine at higher RPM, being able to stow the airbrakes quickly gives a way faster performance boost in the event they have to abort a manoeuvre. I guess a Hawk engine spools up faster than the ones on an A320, but the Paris Air Show provided a graphic demonstration of lag at a critical moment.

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Re: Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#4 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:29 pm

llondel wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:51 pm
My guess would be that with the engine at higher RPM, being able to stow the airbrakes quickly gives a way faster performance boost in the event they have to abort a manoeuvre. I guess a Hawk engine spools up faster than the ones on an A320, but the Paris Air Show provided a graphic demonstration of lag at a critical moment.
Maybe the Mulhouse air show back 1988?

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Re: Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#5 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:41 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:29 pm
llondel wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:51 pm
My guess would be that with the engine at higher RPM, being able to stow the airbrakes quickly gives a way faster performance boost in the event they have to abort a manoeuvre. I guess a Hawk engine spools up faster than the ones on an A320, but the Paris Air Show provided a graphic demonstration of lag at a critical moment.
Maybe the Mulhouse air show back 1988?
Correct

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296Q

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Re: Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#6 Post by llondel » Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:23 pm

OK, I remembered it wrong. Perhaps confused by the fact that it was an AF aircraft. Classic video though, showing the dangers of low, slow flight and the need to allow time for engine spool-up.

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Re: Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#7 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:20 pm

We were advised to use landing configuration on the Tornado F3 if going low and slow for any reason.
This kept the rpms up and enabled a swift decrease in drag when the gear was retracted.
I used it once when I was asked to read the name off the back of a ship.

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Re: Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#8 Post by Ex-Ascot » Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:43 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:20 pm
We were advised to use landing configuration on the Tornado F3 if going low and slow for any reason.
This kept the rpms up and enabled a swift decrease in drag when the gear was retracted.
I used it once when I was asked to read the name off the back of a ship.
Was it in Russian? :YMPARTY:
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Re: Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#9 Post by Boac » Tue Jun 18, 2024 8:20 am

War story alert!!

A Russian int trawler appeared amongst the oil rigs off the Norfolk coast one day and was 'making a nuisance of itself' and it was declared that no assets, maritime or Nimrod, could be directed on-site. I happened to be off to conduct an instrument training sortie in a two-seat Lightning.

I was demonstrating low-level steep turns in the vicinity of the rigs when I accidentally 'momentarily' lost control and over-banked, which caused the aircraft to descend (non-aggressively, of course) and I accidentally pressed the gun-sight camera recorder switch in my alarm, and found to my surprise I was pointing directly at the trawler. I pulled out safely (at an approved distance) and continued the sortie with no further problems. For some reason the film was developed at Coltishall and found its way to the Int branch.

Seven sorts of hell broke loose in the RAF about 'unauthorised manoeuvring' etc and the heat came on. By chance the images proved rather useful to the Int branch, and a fine Wing Cdr Ops (the late David Seward) came to my rescue and it all 'blew over', but my cards were, inevitably, 'marked'. =))

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Re: Air Brake on Red Arrows displays

#10 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:08 am

Didn't you Lightning types also buzz trawlers hosting pirate radio stations?

My only excursion low over the deck of a Russian warship was in close formation on the squadron Boss, to whom all inquiries should be made ;)))

Ship name:
I was doing 1v1 Practice Intercepts over the North Sea for OCU students. On an outbound leg, the nav spotted a slowish aircraft going round in circles in the middle of the oggin.
Since it was almost on track, we bimbled over for a look.
Turned out to be a Fisheries Protection BN Islander, which was orbiting a small tanker.
The nav kept his hand in by using Pulse to drop the ship into Track-While-Scan as well.
Outbound on the next leg, the BN had sloped off but the ship was still plodding along, and the TWS track reassociated.
The new radar update was clearly an improvement.
As we passed over the ship, I noted tell-tale splotches in the tanker's wake. He was illegally washing his tanks out, and had clearly waited for the BN to b#gger off before he did so.
We reported this to Neat so they could get the Islander back.
Next outbound leg, Neat told us the Islander was off task, and could we get the name?
The ship concerned, the 'Clyde River' registered in Monrovia, probably realised he'd been 'nicked' when a jet fighter went past his fly bridge with the nav pointing an accusatory finger.

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