Stray missile

Message
Author
User avatar
probes
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:01 pm
Location: 'Urop
Gender:

Stray missile

#1 Post by probes » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:01 pm

Air-to-air missile 'accidentally fired' by Spanish Typhoon jet over Estonia

Luckily, no casualties, but how does it happen?
"The Eurofighter Typhoon, in service with the British, Spanish, Italian and German air forces, have numerous safety measures to prevent accidental firings. To launch a missile the pilot would first have to rotate the Master Arm Switch to ‘Live’, then operate the Late Arm Switch on the trigger itself. Even then the weapon will not fire unless there is a target already in the jet’s computer, or the pilot has selected ‘dogfight’ mode.

It is possible the missile may have been ejected from the aircraft, rather than fired, a standard procedure if the jet needs to lose the weight of all its munitions rapidly in the event of an incident."

Sisemen

Re: Stray missile

#2 Post by Sisemen » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 am

You’re missing the obvious Probes. It was a SPANISH pilot.

User avatar
ian16th
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 10029
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:35 am
Location: KZN South Coast with the bananas
Gender:
Age: 87

Re: Stray missile

#3 Post by ian16th » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:37 am

Sisemen wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 am
You’re missing the obvious Probes. It was a SPANISH pilot.
......and a Spanish plumber had mounted the beast!
Cynicism improves with age

User avatar
probes
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:01 pm
Location: 'Urop
Gender:

Re: Stray missile

#4 Post by probes » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:41 am

:)
Well, some clarification that doesn't clarify it much?

NATO Fighter Jet Accidentally Fires Air-to-Air Missile Near Russian Border

Quote:
...there are times a pilot might need to take a quick shot. Pilots call this shooting a missile in “boresight mode.” The Eurofighter can do this, according to the official literature. “A gapped circle of fixed diameter, having six dashes and centered on the LFD, indicates the area in which the AMRAAM will search when launched in visual mode (7.5° around the bore sight, known as the acquisition cone."
But this is a dangerous move, taken only when a pilot is outnumbered by hostile aircraft, since the missile locks onto the first threat it sees. The idea that a NATO pilot took these steps by accident seems remote.
The incident in Europe today will be researched and scrutinized, with investigators looking for human error, flight control computer bugs, and other potential causes. If the incident holds true to history, it will be a combination of both. If NATO is lucky, the bad shooting will lead to easily made changes in software or training that will prevent future mishaps.

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12986
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Stray missile

#5 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:04 pm

Other notable cases include the 1975 shootdown of an RAF Jaguar by an RAF Phantom

https://defenceoftherealm.wordpress.com ... a-phantom/

..and the 1987 shootdown of a USAF Phantom by a USN F14

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles ... n-exercise

My attempt at clarification.
1. Fighter aircraft routinely operate all the switches for a real firing on normal training missions. This is necessary so that in wartime the actions are second nature. It has been discovered from experience that making mistakes (known as a 'switch pigs' - as in pig's ear) due to having different routine wartime and peacetime procedures leads to weapons not being released correctly in wartime, and this is deemed a greater problem than the odd unintentional release in peacetime.
2. Air Defence aircraft on alert missions, such as Quick Reaction Alert as in this case, will fly with live missiles. This is usually so that they can switch from a training mission to a real mission whilst airborne, if the need arises, e.g. for the RAF, this is normal in the Falkland Islands - all training missions are live armed.
3. The switches involved in firing a missile are usually:
Master Arm switch - which allows all explosives on board to work, such as those for firing off droptanks as well as missiles, gun, flares, etc.
Weapon selector switch - which is used to select the particular weapon to be used, e.g. Left Outer Sidewinder.
Late Arm switch - which allows the missiles/gun to work, the offensive weapons, and as the name implies is only to be used once an engagement has begun
Trigger - which initiates the actual firing
There are also sometimes electronic Fire/No Fire decision circuits, such as not firing a radar missile unless the computer has a valid radar lock. However these usually have manual overrides which the pilot can operate.
There can also be physical circuit breakers which may also disconnect the missile from a firing pulse from the trigger.
4. A number of safeguards are in place to prevent the firing of live missiles, which vary from aircraft to aircraft, and between different types of weapon. Normally, the Late Arm switch is the one which is deliberately left safe. This is partly because the non-offensive-weapon systems require most of the other switches to be on in order to work, and partly because the Late Arm is the one switch which the pilot/crew make a conscious decision about, and at points in the flight when they have the time to do so.

That's the general stuff, now the specifics.

I spent some time serving with both the pilot and the navigator of the RAF Phantom which shot down the Jag, so I know the full story. At the time, the Late Arm switch had a piece of safety tape placed over it if the aircraft was live armed. It was the end of a long exercise and the base had run out of tape. Furthermore, there was a circuit breaker in the rear cockpit in the navigator's footwell which was pulled. However, all the extra exercise/wartime stuff in the nav's calf pocket at least partially pushed the breaker back in, and the breaker wasn't working properly. So, in addition to the fatigue at the end of the long exercise, the crew had an important visual cue missing, and another safety circuit unknowingly live.
One consequence of this was to stop using safety tape. Expecting it and having it missing was more of a problem than simply not having it. We learned about human psychology from that!

Boresight mode - actually there can be several boresight modes (and the PM article lists just one, and it isn't necessarily the one actually used) are not used often, but their use isn't rare either. I have used a radar boresight mode in training in the F3 several times which sends the missile off with no radar contact at all - you have to keep the target in a little circle in the HUD which illuminates it, and the missile goes off with a preset assumption of what the target is doing. It's useful against a jamming/spoofing target, or if the radar or computer software is playing up, or if it's a tiny RCS target, or...lots of reasons.

However, there is a primary reason not to f#ck up on this which is on all fighter aircrews' minds. None of the guys involved in the above shootdowns ever flew again. ;)))

Also, in live fire training, a 'switch pigs' is normally punishable by a real fine, typically at least one slab of beers. I know of one case where a gun firing sortie had the target towing aircraft in the film view, rather than just the target. The pilot was fined a slab of beer for every single frame the aircraft was in view (24 frames a second). He also had to pay this twice, once to the squadron and once to the tow aircraft crew. It gets expensive!

The Pigs Board, which records the fines, is on general view, so the embarrassment is public. Who gets fined what is solely at the discretion of the Weapons Instructors (QWIs). Funniest one I ever saw was on the first day of one armament practice camp when an entire line of fines was for one of the Flight Commanders, before any sorties had been flown. The offence was "Putting me in detention". Turned out one of the QWIs and the flight commander had been at the same school 20 years earlier, and the flight commander had, as a prefect, put the QWI in detention. Unjustly, it would seem. Be careful who you offend on your way up the authority ladder ;)))

Sisemen

Re: Stray missile

#6 Post by Sisemen » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:26 pm

‘Nother true story. When I was OC Accounts at RAF Honington (Buccaneers at the time) I had to deal with at least 4 claims for loss of baggage. Stay with me....

The Buccs used to do flyaways to Norway and, on return, to maximise flying time, did practise attacks on oil rigs, navy ships or really anything that moved in the North Sea. Overnight/weekend luggage was generally packed in the rotatable bomb bays of the aircraft.

You guessed it. Practice attack; all the procedures, then “Oh ****!!” came the expression as the bomb bay was rotated and the baggage spread across the North Sea.

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12986
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Stray missile

#7 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:06 pm

Good one!

Both myself and my nav walked out to the jet with our kitbags for Desert Shield deployment, opened up the ammo bay to stow them as usual.....and found it had ammo in it!
Well, it would. We'd just signed for same.

We were live armed as we had to pass Libya, and we'd done lots of deployments, but had never done a live armed deployment before.

Red faces all round. Spent next twenty minutes stuffing assorted kit behind assorted panels. Bags left behind. Only good thing to come out of it was we found lots of new bottle of whiskey-sized hideyholes.

User avatar
probes
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:01 pm
Location: 'Urop
Gender:

Re: Stray missile

#8 Post by probes » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:55 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:04 pm
...and the base had run out of tape.


So, that's what it boiled down to... :-?

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12986
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Stray missile

#9 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:40 pm

Well, there were 4 things altogether, any one of which could have stopped the chain happening. It's pretty much always a chain. If it were just one failure, this kind of thing would happen a lot more often.

The ultimate problem is with nuclear weapons, which one Always wants to work when authorised and correctly delivered, but Never otherwise.
Always/Never is the topic of a long (2 hrs), detailed but well presented documentary about the development of safe use of nuclear weapons. A lot of it involves human psychology, but the really interesting thing is that it encompasses just about everything one can think of, from supply admin procedures through battery design to loyalty tests.
It's in two parts.


User avatar
Ibbie
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 6077
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:11 pm
Location: Mijas Costa, Malaga, Spain
Gender:
Age: 74

Re: Stray missile

#10 Post by Ibbie » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:36 am

Here is the Spanish Press on the subject:
https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/08/09/in ... 80364.html

User avatar
4mastacker
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:38 pm
Location: With the wife
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Stray missile

#11 Post by 4mastacker » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:20 pm

I was checking the fuel levels in the BFI storage tanks behind the Q sheds at Leuchars when a 111 Sqn Phantom decided to send a Sidewinder across the airfield and into the Eden estuary. To describe that as a "WTF" moment is an understatement.
It's always my fault - SWMBO

G-CPTN
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7594
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Stray missile

#12 Post by G-CPTN » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:53 pm

Harpoon missile misfire incident, Kattegat 1982 - click for details.

The missile travelled 34 kilometers at low level, severing several power lines before striking some trees after which it exploded.
The fireball and subsequent shock wave destroyed four unoccupied summer cottages and damaged a further 130 buildings in the immediate vicinity.

User avatar
Rwy in Sight
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 6740
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:04 pm
Location: Lost in an FIR somewhere
Gender:

Re: Stray missile

#13 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:39 pm

That much damage from an anti-Radar missile?

G-CPTN
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7594
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Stray missile

#14 Post by G-CPTN » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:58 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:39 pm
That much damage from an anti-Radar missile?
Anti-ship missile.

User avatar
Rwy in Sight
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 6740
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:04 pm
Location: Lost in an FIR somewhere
Gender:

Re: Stray missile

#15 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:32 am

Are you sure G-CPTN that it was a HARPOON? The link provided by probes and the announcement by the Spanish make reference to an AMRAAM - I confuse it with a HARM. I expected an AIR-AIR missile to be much less destructive against a ground target!

G-CPTN
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7594
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Stray missile

#16 Post by G-CPTN » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:57 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:32 am
Are you sure G-CPTN that it was a HARPOON? The link provided by probes and the announcement by the Spanish make reference to an AMRAAM - I confuse it with a HARM. I expected an AIR-AIR missile to be much less destructive against a ground target!
You are confusing two unrelated events - the HARPOON was launched from the Danish frigate Peder Skram in 1982.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Harp ... e_incident

User avatar
Rwy in Sight
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 6740
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:04 pm
Location: Lost in an FIR somewhere
Gender:

Re: Stray missile

#17 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:21 am

I confused them indeed!

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12986
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Stray missile

#18 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:51 am

Anti-Ship missiles are pretty big beasties, with a warhead size that around 500 lbs is much bigger (10x) than an AMRAAM's. We studied the Sea Eagle warhead on a weapons course, very clever stuff too.

User avatar
probes
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:01 pm
Location: 'Urop
Gender:

Re: Stray missile

#19 Post by probes » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:45 pm

Just asking - how important is it to find it? Besides making sure it's not 'operable' and could explode, that is. Does it give any clue why it wandered off?

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12986
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Stray missile

#20 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:31 pm

Depends. If they can figure out why it went off, or at least eliminate a missile fault from the possibilities, then they only need to find it for public safety and national/international reputational reasons. Since, as I say, it's probably buried in a swamp, the chances of finding it are pretty minimal, even if they spend astronomical amounts of money.
I would guess they will do a ground search with some troops for a while (maybe a week), then say "Well, we tried", and stick up a few notices at entrances to the area. That said, the actual area the missile might have ended up in could be about 1/4 the size of Estonia (worse case - I don't know the launch conditions), unless they have some pretty certain information that the missile behaved exactly as it should (which they probably don't), in which case they can probably get the area down to 50 km squared. The chances of it going bang just by someone touching it (if it's above the surface) are quite small now, but will increase as the years pass. The warhead is about 22 kg of explosive. If it does go off, anyone in a 15 m radius is probably dead, that being what it was designed to do.
If a missile fault is a significant possibility, then given there are thousands of these things in service, they will probably try a lot harder to find it.

I would guess they will start searching immediately in the most likely place, then either give up early (which will mean it isn't a missile fault), or continue for a month (maybe at weekends with reserve troops) and maybe switch areas as the analysts get a better idea of where it might be. It's good weather now, I'm guessing they won't search much longer that a month. They may be back briefly late Fall in case it's up a deciduous tree.
Update: I did some research. It's reported that it was launched near Otepää, Valga County, Estonia, heading roughly North, unknown altitude/airspeed.It's probably in Tartu or Jõgeva Counties somewhere, but the full kinetic envelope may just include Russia and Latvia. Should be reasonably safe to just leave it. If someone finds it out farming or hunting, they will likely recognise it as the missile, unless there are lots of unexploded ordnance lying around from Soviet occupation days.

Post Reply