Russians step up the 'probing' flights

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#21 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:26 am

I meant submarine. Devil's Hole was a good lurking place used in both wars. On one occasion we tracked something with MAD for about 20 minutes. Post flight we realised it was a pipe line.

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#22 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:00 pm

I have been reading about the dark art of pursuing the perfidious Russians in the air and water in Tony Blackman's excellent book...
For ASW purposes, the MAD-equipped aircraft must almost be overhead or very near the submarine’s position to detect the change or anomaly, since the detection range is normally related to the distance between the aircraft sensor (‘MAD head’) and the submarine. Naturally, the size of the submarine, its hull material composition and its depth normally determined the strength of the anomaly. In fact, though titanium is a difficult metal to use for construction, the Russians did build some of their hulls with this metal in the Cold War which affected MAD detection performance adversely. Additionally, the direction travelled by both the aircraft and the submarine relative to the earth’s magnetic field was also a factor. Nevertheless, the close proximity required for magnetic anomaly detection made the MAD system an excellent sensor for pinpointing a submarine’s position prior to an air-launched torpedo attack.
Blackman, Tony. Nimrod Rise and Fall .

From the air those amazing but extremely noisy, electronically and audibly so, TU-95's must have been relatively easy to track?

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-07/raf ... -scotland/
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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#23 Post by Boac » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:04 pm

Indeed, not noted as a 'stealth' machine :))

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#24 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:27 pm

And under water too. I have seen the signature of a P3 at 20,000 feet picked up on sonobuoys. It follows that a submarine can counter detect too. While the mighty Hunter running in at 200 feet over a towed array would also be audible it would be less obvious at 20,000 and potentially merge with civil traffic . Not so the Bear.

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#25 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:34 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:27 pm
And under water too. I have seen the signature of a P3 at 20,000 feet picked up on sonobuoys. It follows that a submarine can counter detect too. While the mighty Hunter running in at 200 feet over a towed array would also be audible it would be less obvious at 20,000 and potentially merge with civil traffic . Not so the Bear.
It is a rare irony that the UK which has some of the most sophisticated active sonobuoy technology in the world has not been able to use them as in the last few years they have not had a suitable marine patrol aircraft to utilise the technology until the operational acceptance of the Boeing P8 Poseidon aircraft (one presumes).

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#26 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:48 pm

I left the game just as the 'latest' generation of buoys, BARRA and CAMBS were coming in and before the C-size buoys. I have no idea the performance and even if I had I would not mention it. Suffice to say tracking and prosecuting a nuke was as much an art as a science. He knew he would be prey to a hunter. He could hear sonobuoys splashing into the ocean. Potentially he could even eaves drop on what the buoys were transmitting to the hunter.

We worked on his speed being 300 yards per minute as this was a good speed when he could hear but for evasion may be 900 yards per minute. Good sport getting your torpedo 'net' over his evasive 'hole'. If you missed him first time round he could be two miles away next time. Helicopters had the advantage at that time.

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#27 Post by Boac » Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:57 pm

Beeb Scotkand has some good pics - it looks as if there was a Bear J in the mix too. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-51789577

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#28 Post by CharlieOneSix » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:24 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:48 pm
........ Helicopters had the advantage at that time.
In the 60's with the Wessex Mk1 fitted with the 194 sonar it took 3 antisubmarine helicopters leapfrogging each other to hold a fast moving nuke and even then it was problematical. We had no radar or nav aids and the accuracy of a jump from one hover to another depended on how accurately the pilots flew the jump profile, ie acceleration/deceleration, angle of bank, speed etc. The Observer (tactical Nav) ran a plot but it only showed where he had planned to end up rather than where the pilots put the aircraft....and he had little accurate idea where the other helicopters were.

Things improved when the Wessex Mk3 arrived in the late 60's. As well as the improved 195 sonar it had a tactical radar and the Observer could dial up the track and distance he wanted the helicopter to jump and that showed in the cockpit compass display (photo below) as a required heading and an inset roller blind counted down the distance required. Being on the Trials Unit for only a year I never flew the Mk3 operationally so maybe FD2 can add to this as he flew both the Mk3 and the Sea King.......
wx3.JPG
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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#29 Post by Boac » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:28 pm

In the 60's with the Wessex Mk1 fitted with the 194 sonar it took 3 antisubmarine helicopters leapfrogging each other to hold a fast moving nuke and even then it was problematical.
- I assume little has changed? By the time you have dunked and undunked the sub is some way off. Does the RN have the capability to operate more than one helo on station?

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#30 Post by CharlieOneSix » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:42 pm

I have no knowledge of today's capability but on Ark Royal in 65/66 our Squadron had 8 antisubmarine Wessex Mk1's. No doubt a single Merlin today is far more capable than most of those combined some 55 years on!! About 4 years ago I was shown round a Wildcat helicopter at Yeovilton. It isn't a dunking helicopter but the limited information they were prepared to tell us about its capabilities just blew my mind!
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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#31 Post by Boac » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:45 pm

I wasn't thinking about a carrier group but a 'normal' destroyer/frigate group - are there enough helos for an effective screen?

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#32 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:47 pm

Don't know but we did an infotac once when we had contact but we were out of weapons. It looked absolutely chaotic as I didn't know there the dipper was but he seemed to get contact at each jump. You can just imagine the gyrations below the surface.

Definitely blind man's bluff compared with the fighter guys. Once took a Bucc nav up. It was on an exercise out of Gib. He was prepared for an hour or so sight seeing then crashing out down the back. Instead he was behind us most of the trip. Good exercise, we launched 24 hours after previous landing for about 10 days, expended our full allocation of stores before cadging more from the Canadians. It was rather odd having breakfast, going down town for couple of beers or three and going to bed around 10 or 11 - in the morning.

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#33 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:49 pm

Boac wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:45 pm
I wasn't thinking about a carrier group but a 'normal' destroyer/frigate group - are there enough helos for an effective screen?
Ah, Airplan 4 sectors 1 and 2.

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#34 Post by Boac » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:52 pm

Ah, Airplan 4 sectors 1 and 2.
?? Um............... Trggaft.

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#35 Post by FD2 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:44 pm

My last squadron, 814, did the initial trials on Jezebel use in the mid 1970s and the Merlins nowadays (I think carried on most frigates and destroyers and even QE2 and POW eventually) pretty well use it exclusively and dipping active sonar is only used for a final check before dropping a torpedo. The initial fit in the Sea King had the buoys stacked in racks in the back of the aircraft (behind the observer) with the plotting table in that space too. The buoys were dropped down a tube to deploy while we stooged around 'listening' some way away and at a few thousand feet. I don't know much about the Merlin's fit, never having been inside one, but to answer Boac's concerns, he's probably right about the number of ships which can carry them, as escort numbers have shrunk to pathetic numbers, but a sub is not tracked by several active pingers any more but by sonobuoys, plus the ship's and escorting submarine's array of sonars both passive and active - only going 'active' for localisation and weapon drop. I think things have advanced a bit since my experiences in the 1970s!

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#36 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:41 pm

Boac wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:52 pm
Ah, Airplan 4 sectors 1 and 2.
?? Um............... Trggaft.
The Close support to a task group in 4 sectors centred on Zulu Zulu - task group centre. Frequently there would be no ships in that position and the nav would adjust the patrol box in relation to the intended movement rather than the actual one. The box might even move North East at 10 kts while the TG went West at 15!

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#37 Post by FD2 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:48 pm

Here's an impressive link to the MOD website telling us all about the Merlin Mk2. https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/the-equipm ... merlin-mk2 ... The total number of Mk2s appears (under the silhouette of the Commando Sea King!) to be 30. Some further reading about the Merlin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_AW101. Nice name, but a bit larger than its feathered namesake! Some thought it should be 'Albatross' as it was so late in service due to the MOD(N) spec insisting on three engines, so it could always complete its sortie after one engine failing. Rather complicated gearbox and engines took some time to sort out.

Things have advanced a bit since us playing leapfrog with active sonar in the Wessex but it might be worth pointing out that if a submarine is travelling that fast it will also be making a hell of a noise and not at all 'stealthy'!

The Russians flying in their antiquated Bears just seem, as in other matters like murdering their own people abroad and accidentally a British person, to be making a nuisance of themselves just because they can. At least Erdogan seems to have stopped the Syrian attacks in Idlib, but for how long I wonder. Maybe some supersonic flypasts of the Bears, just above their cockpits, might make him pay attention, as the UK's pathetic grovelling to him under 'Call Me Dave' Cameron certainly didn't.

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#38 Post by Boac » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:54 am

It seems the Bears did have a Mig-31 'escort' although where it/they detached is not clear.

"A pair of F-35 fighter jets from Ørland air base followed two Tu-142s and one MiG-31 over the Norwegian and North Sea Saturday."
Fd2 wrote:making a nuisance of themselves just because they can.
" - it is a bit more 'military' than that, FD - the TU's are quite upgraded from 'old days' with fairly modern kit and are an important part of Russian naval/subsea ops in the North Atlantic. It is along old flog!

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#39 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:25 am

BOAC,do you remember the Bear crash on Bear Island? Were they flying as a pair then?

I remember tracking one operation in the 80s, 4 pair Bear Foxtrot came out of area, flew South through Faeroes Shetland Gap and returned to North Fleet via the Denmark Strait. IIRC we and the USAF had 21 aircraft involved in the shadow. We even had a T* returning from Cyprus with Pax that had spare fuel that was used to top off some 10 tankers.

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Re: Russians step up the 'probing' flights

#40 Post by Boac » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:41 am

Not in my time.

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