Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

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Dushan
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Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#1 Post by Dushan » Sun May 17, 2020 10:15 pm

One of Canadian Snowbirds planes crashed imediately after takeoff. Possible bird strike. Pilot and occupant both ejected, but appears that the pilot died. RIP.

https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/news/ ... 1.24136709
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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#2 Post by boing » Mon May 18, 2020 12:23 am

The news article showed the team with the old Tutor which probably has an ejection seat similar to the Martin Baker Mk.4. If this is true you have very little decision time after an engine failure on take-off, especially if you need to get a second person out and super-especially if this person is not current aircrew and fully ejection seat trained.


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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#3 Post by Dushan » Mon May 18, 2020 3:10 pm

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british ... -1.5573930

Capt. Jenn Casey, a public affairs officer with the Snowbirds, died in the crash, the Canadian Armed Forces said in a statement.

The pilot of the CT-114 Tutor aircraft, Capt. Richard MacDougall, sustained serious injuries in the crash, but they are not considered life-threatening.

She probably would have been trained in the ejection seat procedures, but from the video clips it appears that the chutes did not deploy. Looks like they were too close to the ground when they ejected.
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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#4 Post by boing » Mon May 18, 2020 3:42 pm

Not much to go on in the video but it almost looks as though he tried a turn back to the runway. They were certainly beyond the normal EFOT danger regime.

Sorry, finger trouble.


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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#5 Post by boing » Mon May 18, 2020 3:49 pm

Not much to go on in the video but it almost looks as though he tried a turn back to the runway. I can't see another reason for the climbing turn unless the aircraft had actual control problems.

They were certainly beyond the normal EFOT danger regime which required level flight and an airspeed of over 90 knots if I remember correctly. In the cartridge powered ejection seat era there was a limit to how much "oomph" they could supply so the height/speed/rate of descent envelope was critical to a successful ejection.


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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#6 Post by Boac » Mon May 18, 2020 3:52 pm

Yes- a sad day for all. Too low, too slow and too much down.

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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#7 Post by 4mastacker » Mon May 18, 2020 6:08 pm

There's a video been posted on a local news web-site of the two aircraft taking off. Just as they pass the camera (at about 9 seconds) there is a sound like a dull thud/pop and the accident aircraft starts to climb. Don't know if that's relevant, perhaps someone more qualified than I could assess.

scroll down the page for the video
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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#8 Post by Boac » Mon May 18, 2020 6:47 pm

I think it is definitely known that there was some sort of engine problem. I cannot distinguish any 'noise' change but I am old. If it was not an engine problem, the questions become difficult.

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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#9 Post by Dushan » Mon May 18, 2020 6:51 pm

Bird strike was mentioned in early reports. However that does not match up with a steep climb, unless one, or more, control surfaces was damaged and the aircraft became uncontrollable.
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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#10 Post by Boac » Mon May 18, 2020 6:56 pm

No - the 'steep climb' as you put it is standard procedure for any engine failure (weather/other circumstances permitting) - swap speed energy for height energy. RCAF will have an idea soon of what happened.

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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#11 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon May 18, 2020 7:07 pm

Boac wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:56 pm
No - the 'steep climb' as you put it is standard procedure for any engine failure (weather/other circumstances permitting) - swap speed energy for height energy. RCAF will have an idea soon of what happened.
Pity they could't have ejected at the apogee. As you say they appear to have traded speed for height! I hope the injured crew member pulls through.

Single engine on the Canadair CT-114 Tutor...

Tragic for the Snowbirds and all concerned.
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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#12 Post by AtomKraft » Tue May 19, 2020 7:10 am

Very sad.
I can understand the 'trade speed for height' thing, and maybe they were still getting some power after that surge/ bang?
Unfortunately, while no doubt having a think about putting it back on the airfield, and while in a steep bank, it looks like he ran out of airspeed.
At least one whole turn before ejecting, so clearly something delayed their ejection. A damn shame.

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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#13 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue May 19, 2020 7:44 am

I note that the Snowbirds don't have a support aircraft for reasons of economy and therefore the display aircraft carry the requisite tools, spares etc. in between temporary bases on such a tour where they are unloaded and reloaded later. If these aircraft were in transit then it is possible, given the required fuel loads etc. that they were heavier than in display configuration. Not saying this had anything to do with this accident but, if this was the case, not ideal in an engine out scenario with two crew members on board.
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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#14 Post by Boac » Tue May 19, 2020 7:54 am

I have seen discussion on other mil forums saying that the team sometimes carried personal kit in the cockpit on transits. Hmm. If that interfered with the seats.... However, the seats did fire, but I wonder if some of the release mechanisms could have 'malfunctioned'. The images show at least one parachute deployed. As I said, the RCAF have one pilot and two seats, so they will soon know.

TGG With 1 engine, all those factors are irrelevant with an engine failure!

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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#15 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue May 19, 2020 8:06 am

Boac wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:54 am
I have seen discussion on other mil forums saying that the team sometimes carried personal kit in the cockpit on transits. Hmm. If that interfered with the seats.... However, the seats did fire, but I wonder if some of the release mechanisms could have 'malfunctioned'. The images show at least one parachute deployed. As I said, the RCAF have one pilot and two seats, so they will soon know.

TGG With 1 engine, all those factors are irrelevant with an engine failure!
I appreciate that but wonder about the Centre of Gravity, coupled with low airspeed and the almost immediate spin scenario! If the aircraft is found to be outside its CofG envelope then one might expect some senior officers to be fired. I note that the aircraft has a low stalling speed of +- 70 knots but at MTOW that might have been significantly increased as in Vs new = Vs oldweight x √newweight/oldweight.

Putative Scenario - Aircraft takes off, engine fails, pilot trades speed for height, pilot levels off just above expected stall speed, aircraft stalls, snaps into spin, nose down, pilot fractionally hesitates while intuitively attempting to recover, then ejects, low, slow with downwards momentum, and his chute only just opens, he is injured. Second crewman, also press liaison officer for team ejects just after him but is too low for chute to open and is killed.

Your comment about the risk of obstruction is apposite here.

Anyway I will stop the conjecture and await the report.
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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#16 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue May 19, 2020 8:41 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowbirds
The show team flies 11 CT-114 Tutors—nine for aerobatic performances, including two solo aircraft, and two spares, flown by the team coordinators. Approximately 80 Canadian Forces personnel work with the squadron full-time; 24 personnel are in the show team that travels during the show season. The Snowbirds are the only major military aerobatics team that operates without a support aircraft
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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#17 Post by Boac » Tue May 19, 2020 8:54 am

It would be very difficult to put an a/c like that 'out of cg'. The focus has to be on why the ejections were in such adverse performance areas, or if the margins were 'adequate', why the chutes did not open in time.

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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#18 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue May 19, 2020 9:10 am

Boac wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 8:54 am
It would be very difficult to put an a/c like that 'out of cg'. The focus has to be on why the ejections were in such adverse performance areas, or if the margins were 'adequate', why the chutes did not open in time.
Even if the CofG was in limits, additional significant weight would have been relevant to the stall scenario and maybe the subsequent spin displaced items in the cockpit impeding an expedited ejection sequence.

http://royalaviationmuseum.com/article- ... et-pilots/

Looking at photos of the crash site it is highly fortunate that nobody on the ground was killed or injured as the aircraft crashed in a suburban setting with debris and burning fuel raining down on nearby houses.

As with all aerobatic and display teams there have been previous incidents and crashes...

List of incidents and accidents...
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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#19 Post by AtomKraft » Wed May 20, 2020 7:07 am

Even with an engine failure, this jet was surely well placed after the initial climb, for a controlled ejection?
But why the big left turn?

This was a very survivable accident.

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Re: Canadian Snowbirds Aircraft Carson in BC

#20 Post by Boac » Wed May 20, 2020 7:45 am

As a keyboard warrior (admittedly with a single engine failure and an ejection behind me) I do wonder why the pilot turned left rather than right after the failure. There would still have been (hopefully) a timely ejection by both but the risks of injuries to those on the ground would have been less. A 'turn-back' attempt (which has been suggested elsewhere) is very unlikely with an engine failure at such a low energy state and again with the 'handler' in the right-hand seat - as is suggested - a right turn would be more practical for that again.

This really is all a matter for the investigation and thankfully we have a living pilot to answer. The other questions that need to be answered are why was control lost before the ejection and why eject so late. Again, the prime witness can answer. Questions I would have expected after such an accident.

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